If this is done correctly and with good communications, 99 times out of 100 the coach and/or QB will be mentioning that they are going to a knee. I can tell you with utmost cetainty that if they tell me they're going to a knee and I tip off the D, and they don't go to a knee....there's going to be a flag. And don't start with the crap about for what?? 1) Not following an offical's directive. 2) Using deceit on an opponent. Rule 9-9-3 or a host of others if you wanted to get technical.

I make sure to have my ump tip-off and communicate to the defense that they're going down to a knee and not to do anything foolish.

While he's doing that, I tell the QB to come back and immediately down to a knee....younger HS and youth, I will also tell the coach or have my wing tell the coach.

Never once in 16 years have I had a problem with this...nor, has anyone ever ran anything other than the kneel down. This shouldn't be a big deal....if anything, especially in big rivalry or a monster blowout....this is where you keep things from getting out of hand.

Actually I know many Big 10/MAC/Missouri Valley officials personally (many are my friends in person). So much so that a few have reviewed tapes of games I was involved in. When I worked the State Final one of those individuals was a crew chief in the Big 10. So whether you know someone or not is not the point. I know people too. They still follow the similar procedures. Maybe they use different language or they wait until the "victory formation" takes place, but they do talk to players. I am not talking about people that I know from a far, I am talking about people that know me on a first name basis because we have either been to the same clinics. As a matter of fact the college crew chief has worked or been assigned to work college ball in the Big 10 and other conferences while not being on a regular crew. He asked me to work college ball for years and I finally joined his crew as an alternate. I do not need to email someone; I can pick up the phone and call them.

And if you knew anything about college ball, there are officials that have been doing basic things very differently all over the country for years. The Big 10 does not always do what the Big 12 does or the SEC does not do what the ACC does. And I did not say they do this exactly how we would in high school; I said they have similar interactions.

Better yet I will ask my high school crew chief who has been doing college for a long time and since he is an umpire I will see what he tells me. Because when I worked college the other week we told players things as the winning team was in the victory formation. So I will ask specifically but you will still claim no one does this because you say so.

Peace

I will put it this way. I will put his experience and respect of his fellow official at the high school and college ranks up against what you say any day. Do what works for you; we will do what works for us. Honestly who gives a damn at the end of the day what you do. I do not have to work with you. ;)

Peace

No case play is all inclusive. Even you should know that. If the coach yells that he's going to take a knee to decieve the defense, then that meets the definition of an unfair act.

I don't see how "Be smart guys, if he takes a knee, don't hit him," could be considered coaching. But if that's the issue, then "Be smart guys. Don't do anything stupid," addresses both teams.

It is exclusively, "In the opinion of the Referee" (NF: 9-9-5) that determines what is improper.

Exactly. If in the referee's opinion the coach deliberately tried to deceive the defense, that's all that needed.

HA HA HA Now that was funny:rolleyes:

Speaking as a fan...

Is a 'fake kneel down' play illegal?

If not and a coach tells you they have a fake kneel play during your pre-game meeting, are you going to allow them to run the play at the end of the game?

Which leads to (addressed to the guys who tell the defense a kneel down is coming)...

I *ASSUME* you guys all work the same areas. I further *ASSUME* the players recognize you. So if a team has a fake kneel play, AND tells you they're going to run A play, does your silence to the defense tip off the defense? I'm also assuming players from middle school on up can recognize the victory formation, so they see the victory formation, but the official who's told them every time the offense is going to kneel DOESN'T tell them this time, which means the formation is a fake.

It's really splitting hairs and becomes a tough one with this the way it is put. If they take successive kneel downs...I would say the same to the QB or caoch each time to take 2 steps back and go down...reapeatedly until the whistle. Not to mention....running a play after successive kneel downs is incredibly "bush league" and would probably make for an interesting handshake at the end of regulation.

If a team hurries to the line and tells it's players "spike it" or says "hurry up" assuming they will spike the ball to stop the clock, but then throw a pass...you're caught in la la land as an official. You hurry to get the ball set, get your ump or yourself out of the way and let the cards fall where they do. If the team says outright to ME that they are taking a knee....they better take it or there's some laundry coming out. The game is one of deception and sometimes on-field trickery (hook and ladder play, FI), but using the officials in any way would be an immediate foul on my field.

Under NCAA rules it is not illegal per se but simulating taking a knee causes the ball to become dead.

Under Fed, there is no prohibition against it.

Something else I thought of...

If A is leading as time is running out (whether by 1 or by 50) is there really a reason to run a 'fake kneel'? I'm thinking A's coach will be keeping up with how many TO's team B has, how much time on the clock, etc.

The more appropriate situation would be a TIED game, less than a minute to go. THEN a coach may try a fake... team B thinks A is playing for OT & relaxes, A runs the fake and gets the score/big gain to set up the score.

Which still leads to my question about team B players notice the official ISN'T saying A is taking a knee = A has a play on.

At what point is the simulation? Victory formation, snap, QB takes two steps back and... if he ducks is that the simulation? I'm not trying to be an a--, I really want to know.

I'll tell you EXACTLY how it happened ... or happens.

Team B is completely out of the playoffs. Team A needs to not only win, but win by 8 to win a tiebreaker to make the last slot of the playoffs. A is up by 4 with 30 seconds to go on the B 20. A lines up in victory (and had practiced this all week for EXACTLY this scenario). QB pretends to bobble snap. TE takes one firm step at the snap and pretends to give up on the play, then darts to the right corner as QB throws him the ball - no one on the defense moved.

That one actually happened - I was not there, but we ALL heard about it.

Another plausible scenario would be next year when Team B above plays Team A, and is up by 20 ... and wants payback.

And a far more common possibility would be from your own 40-ish at the end of the HALF. Act like you're taking your 6 pt lead to the locker room, lineup in victory and fake it. This one ACTUALLY happened in the Texas Tech v. Texas game 2 years ago. Unfortunately Mike Leach was unaware that if his QB went toward the ground as if taking a knee, the ball was dead in NCAA. If he'd not have acted as if he was going down, he would have caught Texas completely unaware.

Yes... any motion toward the ground in a knee situation or formation is what we're told to kill.

The offensive QB tells us, and we inform the opposing team. I actually position myself very close to the LOS to prevent any issues. They have to make an accurate and complete snap, but once it is done the QB goes to the knee and the play is over. JIM