2 play situations
 

1st play: 4th down and 10 from team A's own 20, snap goes over the punters head into the endzone where R kicks it out of the endzone. what are the options?

2nd play: 1st and 10 with 15 seconds left quarterback A1 from under center takes a snap and in an attempt to spike it, hits the center in the back of the leg and the ball goes to the ground. what is the call?

1st Play:
If R unintentionally kicked as he tried to pick it up, it would be a safety.

If R intentionally kicks it out of the end zone, which makes no sense whatsoever, it would be penalized from the previous spot.

2nd Play: Incomplete pass.

[QUOTE=BktBallRef;693142]1st Play: No options, it's a safety.

even if R kicks it out of the endzone? it wasn't k.

For the first play the result of the play is a safety. The penalty will be enforced 15 yards from the previous spot. 1st and 10 for A at the A-35.

1st Play:
Agree with Welpe.
Loose ball play, enforced from previous spot,
1st and 10 for A at A's 35.

2nd Play:
Ruling: Intentional Grounding.
Spike attempt violated the exception provision
in Rule 7-5-2. Clock will start on Ready as attempt
to conserve time was done illegally.

[quote=yankeesfan;693143]Thanks. Didn't catch that. Edited.

2nd Play: Incomplete pass.[/QUOTE]

i agree with the incomplete pass on the 2nd play situation. are there any other views on this?

Incomplete pass. Anything else here is looking for trouble.

You may be thinking of casebook 7.5.2B here, but in that play, the ball hits the snapper's foot and rebounds into the air, where the QB catches it and spikes it again. The SECOND pass is the one that is illegal, not the first.

2nd play is incomplete. The QB has to throw the ball forward to the ground. The rule book does not say that it cannot hit another player in the process of throwing it to the ground. I agree that calling anything else but incomplete is fishing for trouble.

Edit: I missed that it was R who kicked the ball.

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

1. Offside Pass. Team A 1D/10 @ Spot of B's kick.
   
2. (Assuming ball in passer's hand when the hand hit the centre.) Need to know where the ball went. The point of release and point where the ball hit the ground.

The foul is by R/B, not A.

Uh, wha, huh? Team A gets the ball, 1st and 10 from their -4 (4 yards into the endzone) yard line? Wanna read again and give us the real answer?

It's Canadian rules so who knows, maybe that's correct. :eek:

Only in the game in my head, where they would use that big end zone/goal area to scrimmage from.

I'm intrigued that a dribble by the attacking team that goes out of bounds from behind a goal line is now considered an offside pass, if he got that right.

What am I missing?
 

In the first play, Receiving kicked it out of the end zone of Kicking....correct? Does not Kicking have two options if the kicking was intentional? Penalized from the spot of the foul against R and would still be 4th down or decline the penalty and it would be a touch back with ball awarded to Kicking on their 20, right?

No, where do fouls by the defense get enforced from?

No, what was the force that put the ball into the endzone?

NFHS You are correct it would be a safety foul behind the basic spot is penalised from the spot therefore its a safety

Um ... what?

Objection your honor, asked and answered.

In the OP the snap went into the end zone...force is a A/K's snap, meaning we will either have a safety against A/K or a touchdown for B/R (assuming they get possession)

What happens after the ball goes into the end zone cannot change the force that put it there.

R's kick assuming that the OPer meant an intentional act of kicking, then all-but-one 15 yards from previous spot or decline it for a safety.

If though instead and more likely R's kick was inadvertant to an attempt to recover for a touchdown, then when the ball goes out of the end zone it is a safety, as R's touching is nothing more than a muff on a ball K's responsible for putting in the end zone.

Well ... you're kind of omitting one other significant possibility ... K recovers the ball and manages to either run it out or kick it out. This is not, defacto, a TD or Safety ... yet.

Not really much of an option, eh? K is keeping the ball, 15 yards from the original LOS... maybe even with a first down.

Yup.

Dead Horse?
 

OK, I am growing more confused as the thread goes on. The force putting the ball into the end-zone was the snap. However, it is still a live ball, so should I not be more concerned on the force that propelled the ball out of the endzone?

In addition, it's a loose ball, so the penalty would be enforced from the spot (which is the goal line) and would be a 15 yard....oh, would someone help me here because I am twisting all out of shape!

No. Check the definition of force in Rule 2. No new force can be imparted on the ball while it is in the endzone.

This is basic all but one enforcement. Go through the steps of penalty enforcement and you will get your answer.

What type of play is it? (Loose ball or running)

Who committed the foul? (Offense or Defense)

What is the spot of the foul?

Where is the basic spot?

(1) No. Read the rule 2 definition of force.

(2) It's a loose ball play. The basic spot is the previous spot. The all-but-one doesn't apply because the penalty is on R/B.

Or Rich could give you the answers. :eek:

seems to be a common theme: No one wants to give the answer. I'm at work without access to a rule book.

Rich and I both answered your questions. I answered your first and Rich basically answered your second, you just need to put the pieces together.

I make it a habit of keeping my books with me so I can look things up when I have a moment (lunch, break, etc). We are trying to help you learn by going to the source instead of just spoon feeding. Teach a man to fish and all that...

Rich, I also beg to differ that all but one doesn't apply here. This is still all but one enforcement but the foul by defense is one of the fouls in the "All" category.

It can't be that crucial if you're at work. Look it up when you get home. It's easy for me to tell you the answer, but it's more important to know the key principles and definitions that lead to the answer so you can apply them yourself.

Force is only in reference to the action that puts the ball from the field of play INTO the endzone. The illegal kick caused the ball to go from the endzone across the end line, so we do not use the term "force" in association with this action.

Also, do not mix up "loose ball" with "loose ball play" (see rule 10-3). The ball is loose, but more importantly, it is a loose ball play because of the incomplete backward pass (snap) from in or behind the neutral zone. The basic spot for a loose ball play is the previous spot. For most fouls on B/R, the enforcement spot is the basic spot (in this case the previous spot) (see 10-5 for exceptions).

So, the penalty on B/R occurs during a loose ball play, the enforcement spot is the previous spot. If declined, we have a ball that became dead in A's EZ with A responsible for forcing the ball into their EZ, so we have a safety (8-5-2b).

Thank you!!
 

Thank you very much!!

Sorry Rich, but you've hit a peeve. ABO applies to (nearly) ALL fouls, which is the point of calling it "ALL but one."

It might not apply in the sense that fouls by R/B aren't the "one" mentioned in "all but one," but it DOES apply in the sense that fouls by R/B are among the "all."

In accordance with ABO, (nearly) all fouls by the defense are enforced from the basic spot.

Peeve away. I was sloppy. Not that it *really* matters.