TE cut blocks
 

are the TE's allowed to cut block the DT since they (TE) are not in tackle box? I thought that only players inside (tackle to tackle) are allowed to cut block inside the box.

the reason I ask is because we play a team this week who, when they run away from the TE, will cut the DT while the G and T both pull to lead on the sweep.

thanks for any info and replies.

No such rule in Fed. Were they all positioned within 4 yds. of the ball?

TE only needs any part of his body in FBZ to block below the waist provided the defensive tackle was also in FBZ and the ball had not yet left the zone which I would assume it had not in the play you mentioned.

I am assuming the TE is in the FBZ (yds) since the Oline is foot to foot with their splits. I am just worried about my DT's knees when he gets blindsided by the TE while trying to follow the G/T's pull.

I guess I should have searched the forum first before posting my question. After I posted I did a search and found the answer I was looking for.

First we've got to break out of the "coachese"-

There is no "tackle box" in the Fed for the blocks nor the QB. We do have the "free blocking zone".

Cut block is another coaches term. Blocking below the waist (BBW) is how we would refer to it. Some defensive coaches think that all "cut blocks" are illegal. That isn't the case.

Also the block below the waist has to be before the ball leaves the free blocking zone. So it has to happen quickly after the snap.

Also no block below the waist can be coupled with a high block (or a player being engaged with another opponent) if that low block is a delayed block. Which by definition is a chop block.

I agree there are all kinds of coach speak that coaches need to stop using when it has nothing to do with the rules. And when a TE is in the FBZ he is allowed to do anything that the others in that zone can do. But there are many teams that put their TE out of the zone, but nothing in the rule disallowing the TE from being in the zone.

Peace

I'm a new official and was able to accompany a veteran crew to a scrimmage last weekend. One of the teams were so spread out that thier tackles were out of the FBZ. They never went low, but the ref let the coach know that they were too wide to go low. He argued and argued that it was a "tackle box". The ref finally just said I'm trying to help you out coach, if I were to see him go low in a game I would call it. I've been a youth coach for about 10 years and I thought I knew the rules, until I picked up the rule book this year to study for the test. I did get a 98% though, but no way if I did not study. I wonder what some of these coaches would get without picking up the rule book?

I wouldn't make that statement, because compared to the length of time of many downs, the ball can frequently spend all or most of it in the FBZ. Better not to imply there's anything like a time limit on it.

As a bit of a novice at Fed Rules (we use NCAA Rules here in the UK), should I understand 2-17-2-a to mean that both the blocker and the blockee must have been on the LOS? So an O lineman could not legally BBW a linebacker who was within the FBZ but a couple of yards off the LOS?

Is the wording of 2-17-2 different to 2-17-3 and 2-17-4 so as to allow the D linemen to BBW the O linemen in the FBZ, but the D cannot clip or BIB?

Two flakes, that is correct. Both offensive and defensive linemen may block below the waist if they meet the rest of the free blocking zone criteria. A defensive player is considered a linemen for these purposes if he is within a yard of his line of scrimmage at the snap.

+1.

If it's a shotgun snap, the block must be immediate (no delay) in order to meet the spirit of the FBZ / rule. At least that's how it's interpreted most places.

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

TEs are not in the CLPA. so they are not permitted to cut block.

This is also the Canadian ruling, but we also demand the the cutter is stationary at the snap.

3 yards is not that far - especially when you consider that the QB is likely about 4-5 feet behing the LOS. 1 step back or 2 diagonally back, and the ball is out of the zone. I'd say "quickly" is almost always right.

Interesting discussion ......in my association they intrepret the rule differently than NFHS, it is not allowed period in the shotgun because their logic is the ball has left the zone at the snap because a shotgun snap is 5-7 yards, and they defined the zone as tackle to tackle therefore the tight end can not BBW. THe area coaches were involved in the decision so they are always sure to point out the habitual offending teams in the pregame discussion with the WH.

If it really is your association's "interp," they're wrong twice.

2.17.2 SITUATION E: A1 is in shotgun formation, lined up seven yards behind
the line of scrimmage ready to receive the snap. Immediately after the snap to A1,
(a) A2 immediately drops and blocks B1 below the waist or (b) A2 rises, and
slightly retreats as if to go in traditional pass blocking protection, but then dives
and blocks B1 below the waist. Both A2 and B1 were in the zone and on the line
of scrimmage at the snap. The contact between A2 and B1 takes place in the freeblocking
zone. RULING: It is a legal block in (a) and an illegal block below the
waist in (b). It is legal for A2 to block B1 below the waist if the contact is made
immediately following the snap. Any later, and the ball is considered to have left
the free-blocking zone and the block is illegal.

2-17-1 . . . The free-blocking zone is a rectangular area extending laterally 4
yards either side of the spot of the snap and 3 yards behind each line of
scrimmage. A player is in the free-blocking zone when any part of his body is in
the zone at the snap.

I've heard of officials making up their own wrong interpretations that are clearly not what the rules say... but I chalk that up to poor training or just ignorance.

Not often an entire association ends up doing that.

In my state (MS) this is the proper interpretation. If a lineman steps back then cuts, it's illegal. If he's gonna cut, he must fire off low at the snap if the snap is a shotgun-type.

Also, b/c the fbz is defined as 6x8, we don't refer to it as a tackle box. The general rule is that if the splits are tight or regular, the TE is in the box at the snap. If the splits are extraordinarily wide, it's possible for the TE to be outside the box.

If the end is out of the FBZ, he's not really tight, is he. ;)

Very true!:)

In NCAA, where is the FBZ centered if team A has an even number of players on their LOS?

You're kidding, right?

Find in the book where it has you count players...

Per an NCAA memo last year, the blocking zone is centered on the middle lineman of the offensive formation. If there is an even number I suppose you'd use the midway point betweeen the two middle linemen.

Not exactly. An even number on the LOS is immaterial. What matters is the number of linemen in formation near the center (not necessarily centered on the center, of course). You should not care how many are on the line (in fact ... since this is R and U's call, they may not even know if an 8th guy is inadvertently on the line somewhere. And usually, your extra (or missing if you just have 6) guys are misplaced wide-outs. R is not moving the blocking zone based on the positioning of wings.

If by "center" you mean "snapper", I don't think his positioning is relevant in determining where the middle lineman is. In one of those split line formations where the ball is snapped by a split end (and the other players on the OL are close to each other), the ball is out of the FBZ before the play even starts!

Im aware our associations intrepretation is different than NFHS rule book. however I agree with the shotgun part becasue if a qb is 7 yards deep and the FBZ extends 3 yards then technically when the ball is snapped it has left the zone. I think they are erring on the side of safety and like I said the coaches are fine with it.

"Technically" the ball is still in the FBZ at the snap.

Which is completely contrary to the rule.

No, the ball has no left the zone at the snap. The zone is three yards deep, so the ball is not out of the zone until it travels the three yards.

There's no safety issue here. BBW immediately after the snap while in shotgun is no more dangerous than blocking in the same manner on a hand to hand snap.

What other rules do they make up in your area?

We're only talking about a foot or two at the most, not even a yard in a normal formation. Quite technically you do need to consider who your middle lineman is but it's not going to matter unless you have a strange formation.

But what if you do have a strange formation?

Clear this up for me - the number of linemen doesn't matter according to the NFHS rule, right?
2-17-1 . . . The free-blocking zone is a rectangular area extending laterally 4
yards either side of the spot of the snap and 3 yards behind each line of
scrimmage.

Technically no, but I can't imagine more than 7 or 8 linemen fitting in a box 8 yards wide.

Well then I guess it matters, doesn't it?

True, but look at it the other way. I know of several teams who run an extreme unbalanced line - Center and Guard on one side, everybody else on the other. According to what I understand about the rule, only the first 3 on the unbalanced side can go low, right? Even though the next guy is a tackle, he can't cut b/c he's outside the 4yds on his side of the spot of the snap.

Correct - it's based solely on where the snap occurs.