It seems that negotiations with the league fell apart last night. This league simply does not believe the story of the officials involved. Furthermore the league thinks he is a lousy official, and believed the coaches'lies. Because one of the coaches is "the whole Palos program" they will not kick him out.

The league director told the ADs he has seen every tape made by parents at the game and none of them show any coach pushing the official - who, by the way is only 19 years old. The AD has not produced those tapes nor shown them to anyone else.

Keep in mind that this is YOUTH football!

Not beyond belief. That is, if you are an official.

"Youth" sports today suffers from parents running these programs of which many have absolutely no idea about football except what they see on TV.

My hope is that fellow officials have the intestinal fortitude to stand up to this league and boycott their games.

I am sure there are some officials who would complain about the loss of money but loss of dignity has no price.

Thanks for your support Ed!
 

Even though I don't ref in this league much anymore, I am standing arm-in-arm with these guys.

Here's what's happening:

Several local writers have been apprised of the situation.

At least one radio sports-talk host has been supportive.

Several BBS's have posts from me or a colleague who goes by "Zebra".

This weekend's games are boycotted. Officials will be manning picket-lines and handing out literature to passersby and officials who may have been duped into working.

One more thing:
The league's president has admitted that he hasn't seen any tapes. He just lied about this situation so that he could pull this weekend off without any problems.

Guess that strategy is backfiring.

Good luck!
 

I just wanted to say keep the faith! The integrity of the game is in your hands.

The Events of This Past Weekend
 

With regards to the job actions taken...

All of the games played this weekend were done so with coaches and other willing parents as the officials. As far as could be determined, only two licensed officials worked the games.

One of the day's programs started at 11:45AM and didn't end until Midnite. Another ended at 11:30PM

As you might suspect, signals and mechanics were not even close to what they were used to getting. Rules interpretations were "creative" to say the least.

In my opinion, it was a sad, sad day for youth football in the Chicago's Southwest 'burbs. One of the guilty parties responsible for the officials having to take this job action was actrually seen trying his hand at the umpire position - and butchering it badly.

I'm really glad that my HS schedule was full. I didn't have to witness the debacle.

I hope they stand strong. I wish I was close enough to support them by being there.

Who suffers???
 

Who is getting hurt the most here guys??? The League who now gets to keep the concession stands running longer and make more $$$$? The coaches who have shown they can pull it off, albeit not as cleanly as we would have made it? The refs who are not being mistreated by being on the field?

Or the KIDS????????

So what you're saying is that "for the sake of the kids" we should allow these butts to abuse a 19-year-old kid, simply because they want to? Or better yet, these jackasses don't like the kid's calls, so that justifies their bad behavior? Or even better, when they want they have an overweight kid, they help him/her "make weight" by administering Lasix to them to "help" them.

The last time I checked, no kid was ever permanently damaged because they didn't have licensed officials refereeing their pee-wee football games.

As a matter of fact, most high school coaches have problems "de-programming" these kids when they get to 9th grade and have to spend extra time teaching them the correct fundamentals of football.

Please don't preach about that which you don't know.

Hit a nerve???
 

Wow...you are a little keyed up aren't you????

What exactly is it that I don't know? I have served as the commissioner of a youth football league with 32 teams. I have coached youth football. I have reffed yourth football.

From what I have read about the league in question, it is huge!!! And this is the 1st "serious" incident in 25 years?!?!?!?! (And I say "serious" because the "assault" that apparently occurred, while wrong, pales in comparison to assaults on other officials around the country.

What ever happened to trying to work in the system for change instead of this "in your face" way of dealing with the problem which almost lowers the refs to the level of the bad coaches?

And now we hear that the independent review of the tape does not even corroborate what was alleged by the ref??????

Since You Can't Possibly....
 

....know what happened being that you're from Texas, I'm wondering where you're getting your info from.

If it's from this thread, please read again. They didn't even bother to look at the tape is what I've said here. While there are varying degrees of assault, I don't think any official at any level should ever be touched, shoved or threatened by anyone.

This young man admittedly needs a lot of training and improvement, which is why he was working an 8th grade game rather than a HS varsity game. Does this give a 50 year old man a license to shove the kid around and threaten to "kill him" if he calls the police?

That will touch a nerve anytime I hear about it. This situation needs ro be dealt with firmly. The league won't even consider punishing the offending party because he has a load of cash.

Gimme a break will ya? Are we supposed to let this escalate to the point that somebody has to be admitted to a hospital before the problems are dealt with?

There isn't a system within this particular league. That's what the officials are complaining about. What recourse do officials have? How can you say that there haven't been any incidents in the past 25 years? I was personally involved in one of this league's problem incidents about 6 years ago. That wasn't dealt with either!

Where, exactly, are you getting your info from about this incident?

I read the article someone posted from the "Southtown News".

The story claimed the tape had been reviewed by the League AND by the newspaper. Result: Inconclusive evidence.

I am not saying to let the problem escalate. I am just questioning the tactic used to deal with the problem.

I just read the article. It didn't say inconclusive anywhere in the article - it said that the angle that the tape was made from wasn't good enough to determine who did what.

I also spoke with a couple of parents who attended the game, not to mention the senior official on the game who has approximately 20 years on the job. The kid ref who was shoved is 19. He's also only about 5-10 and weighs about 150lbs soaking wet.

Judge for yourselves guys... here's the article:

"Referees demand coach's ouster "

Alleged attack during a youth league game has officials sitting out

Sunday, October 6, 2002

By Carrie Wolfe
Staff writer

-----------------------------------------------------
Forty referees who work for a local private youth football league are refusing to show up at games until a coach who allegedly attacked a referee is banned from the league.
The referees, who are hired by the Southwest Midget Football League, said they are uniting in support of Steve Besse Jr., 19, who says two Palos Stars coaches attacked him Sept. 14 at a Palos Stars-New Lenox Mustangs game.

Palos Stars assistant coach Joseph Vojanek was banned from the league after the incident, but head coach Louis Trench was not.

Referees are worried for their safety, former head referee Tom Hug said.

"We want (Trench) to be banned from coaching and being the athletic director for the Palos Stars," Hug said. "(Referees) don't want him to be on the game fields."

Trench is the same coach who drew criticism for allegedly giving a 10-year-old player the prescription diuretic Lasix in 1995 to help him lower his weight before football tryouts.

Although never criminally charged by Palos Hills police, Trench was quoted in media accounts as supporting the one-time use of the drug, which rids the body of water and causes users to urinate heavily. Doctors at the time said the drug could cause health problems in a child with undiagnosed kidney or heart problems.

The league has rejected the referees' demand to oust Trench.

At a special meeting Wednesday, the league board voted to keep Trench in his current positions as vice president of the Southwest league and athletic director for the Palos Stars.

The board, made up of the athletic directors of the 14 teams in the league, also adopted a set of official policies, including one that enables the league to expel from a game any coach, athletic director, official or fan who physically assaults any game participant, said Tinley Park Bulldogs athletic director Nick Genardo.

That and other policies the league adopted — outlining provisions on sportsmanship, coach conduct and liability issues — were requested by the referees.

But the league hasn't met all the demands, including banning Trench.

"We will not be back until those demands are met," Hug said.

In addition to the 40 referees boycotting the league, 280 other referees around the state have agreed to join the strike until demands are met, Hug said.

As a result, games are being played with coaches and fathers serving as referees. The 51 games played last weekend had no official referees. The league has more than 3,000 players.

Some parents will not let their children play without licensed officials, Hug said. But several athletic directors said things were going fairly smoothly without the referees, despite a few questionable calls.

Hug suggested that parents may not want to speak out because they fear their kids will be denied playing time.

"They're just afraid of the repercussions they will face for speaking out," Hug said.

Tolerated behavior?

Before this incident, the league had no written policy for coach-referee conduct, Genardo said. In the league's 42-year history, no coach had had a physical fight with a referee, he said.

Vojanek was banned from the league on Sept. 25 after the league determined that he "actually put his hands on (Besse)," Genardo said.

"We don't tolerate that kind of behavior," he said.

But the league voted to keep Trench, since "there is no physical proof, other than going off on a screaming rampage, which Louis is known for, that (Trench) physically touched (Besse)," he said.

Coaches reviewed a home video of the incident Wednesday before voting to exonerate Trench.

Referees and coaches disagree on what the video shows. Genardo said it clears Trench, but some referees say they see Trench push Besse several times.

In a copy of the tape viewed by a Daily Southtown reporter, Trench can be seen yelling in Besse's face and then being restrained by at least two people while he continues to yell at Besse. It is difficult to determine whether there was any physical contact because of the camera angle and the distance from the action.

Regardless of whether Trench pushed Besse, Hug said he believes the incident set a bad example for the players.

"Now it's acceptable behavior to those kids," Hug said.

While Trench was reprimanded verbally and in writing for his actions at the game, Hug said the referees believe Trench is being protected by the league because he has been involved in the program for at least 30 years.

But Genardo disagreed.

"The big rumor is we're a good ol' boys network and we took care of Lou," Genardo said. "That's not true."

For his part, Trench would only say that neither he nor Vojanek touched Besse and reiterated that "the league exonerated me."

He referred all other questions to his attorney, David Dineff, who repeated Trench's comments and said he had not seen the video or discussed Trench's behavior with him.

Vojanek declined comment; league president Ron Schaper did not return several calls.

'Have someone else run it'

According to Besse, the incident at the Sept. 14 game in New Lenox started when, with two minutes left in the game, Vojanek called for a time-out.

The Palos Stars were losing 29-0. Vojanek approached Besse and started yelling obscenities at him and two other game officials, Besse said.

Besse threw a yellow flag and called an automatic 15-yard penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct. Vojanek picked up the flag and threw it at him, Besse said.

Vojanek then pushed Besse's shoulders and "belly butted" him, Besse said. When Besse ejected him from the game, Trench came onto the field, "belly butted" him and pushed him, Besse said.

Besse asked Trench to leave, but Trench said, "I'm not leaving my (expletive) field," and, "I'm going to (expletive) kill you," Besse said.

Besse said he's been refereeing for several years and began working with the Illinois High School Association when he was 18, but the fight has caused him to question if he wants to continue.

"It just kind of gets to the point where I don't know if I want to do this anymore," he said. He's not scared of the two coaches, he said, but he won't go near them.

"I think he should be out of the league," Besse said of Trench. "They can have someone else run it."

Referee Larry Hug, Tom Hug's brother, said Trench told him repeatedly that night, "if that (expletive) punk presses charges Monday, he's a dead man."

Kids caught in the middle

Players in the league range in age from 7 to 14. They come to play from as far north as Palos Hills, as far south as Crete-Monee, as far east as Glenwood and as far west as Joliet.

Super pee-wee division Palos Stars Coach Rick Hoppenrath Jr., who witnessed the confrontation, said events of the day contributed to the fight.

There were questionable calls throughout the game, Hoppenrath said, and Besse wasn't paying attention. Besse was concerned about younger children playing near his truck and missed a hard illegal hit to a Palos Stars player, he said.

He also said that while Trench screamed at Besse to get off the field, he never touched Besse. But, he said, Besse slapped Vojanek's hand away when Vojanek pointed at him.

"The problem is I feel the referees are trying to hold us hostage," Hoppenrath said. "Of everybody that's in (the football league), they're the only paid people. ... All they're hurting is the kids."

Besse denied Hoppenrath's allegations, but referees agreed that the players are the ones who are suffering.

"The adults who are running the league and refusing to do the right thing are making the kids suffer," Larry Hug said.

Possible charges

Besse went to the Palos Hills Police Department on the Monday after the incident and asked to press charges against Trench and Vojanek.

No charges have been filed yet, and Besse said he may take his case to the Cook County state's attorney if they do not.

And the decision not to return to field was not unanimous for the referees. Two have agreed to start working again because they believe Trench didn't touch Besse, Genardo said.

The league does not disagree that Trench went too far, he said.

"We're all in full agreement that Louis' actions were a little over the top, no doubt about it."

One More Thing....
 

...and then I will comment no longer. Everyone here knows my opinions on this topic, and they won't change anytime soon.

I noticed that TXMike posted his comments abot the boycott on Saturday, October 5th at approximately 9AM. This article wasn't posted on the newspaper's website until roughly 6PM on Saturday.

Have a good day everyone. I know I will. I have a game tonite!

Do You See Things As Well on Tape as You Do On the Screen??
 

Go back again Inspector Clouseau. My initial comments on this "boycott" had nothing to do with the article and were posted before the article came out. In fact, I posted similar comments on another board when the rest of us in the world were first clued into this situation last week. But my subsequent comments were after I viewed the article. All the article did was make me feel even stronger about my position.

If you cannot read the article and take away from it that the tape was inconclusive then you are truly not being an impartial observer. When the NFL looks at a tape and says they can't see enough to over rule a call, they are saying the tape is inconclusive. The way I read this article, the tape inconclusive. It does not matter if the camera angle is bad, or the videographer was shaking, or what the reason was. The bottom line is the tape is inconclusive.

OK Genius
 

This isn't the NFL, this is youth football.

Are you saying that it's OK for the coaches to push, shove and threaten lives? You may argue that it was "in the heat of the moment", the cold fact is that this is all too frequent with the team in question.

The article quoted a league source as saying that this was the first incidence of violence perpetrated on an official, when I disctinctly remember a coach being so irate at an official that he actually ran an official over WITH HIS CAR in the field parking lot. The official involved in the incident immediately filed chagres with the Crestwood, IL police dept. I guess memories are very short indeed!

There were several instances in which one of the teams had a team announcer threaten officials over the park's PA system. In some of those cases, the officials had to be escorted by police off the field to their vehicles. The team was reprimanded - slap on the wrist.

Once again Mike, you have no idea what you are talking about with regard to this league. I find it apalling that an official would take the side of the abusive, egotistical and self-centered "coaches" in this case. You start by saying that you have the kids' welfare as your main concern.

Well, my friend, this isn't about the kids, it's about adults who have completely lost sight of the objective and that's what we're protesting. Sadly, it's about some absolutely warped parents imposing their corrupt sense of values on the innocents of the area.

What are they teaching these kids? That it's OK to assualt somebody simply because you disagree with them? That it's OK to dispense Lasix to 10-year-olds so that they can make weight - even though they might suffer permanent kidney damage?

Get over yourself dude. The video tape, along with audio raised enough questions for this incident to become the lead story on the 10 o'clock news on the ABC and NBC owned stations here in Chicago this past Sunday.

Inconclusive? Hardly.

This isn't an NFL "game". These are our children's lives.

Just a Side Note
 

The "coach" in question was charged tonight in Palos Hts, IL.

Another tape with a better angle is being shown on ABC's local station after MNF.

Read Closer
 

I never said it was okay for the coach to do any of the things you mentioned. But apparently, outside of the official's statements, there is not enough to PROVE the allegation. We all know when we put on the stripes that we are going to be targets of abuse, rightly or wrongly. We hope and pray it never rises to the level of physical abuse but we all know, in the back of our minds, that possibility is there.

You want to slam me for not blindly running to join in the support of a boycott because I am also an official. How biased is that???? Should all the coaches blindly accept what the coaches say? So far, the only versions we have is yours and the newspapers. If you want me nopt to comment on things "I know nothing of", then don't post here. Keep it to yourself or to someplace where just you in that area can deal with it.

I don't know what you do in real life so maybe you are used to things being black and white. I deal in grays and it seems to the outside "uninformed" observer, there is plenty of gray here. And even if everything the official says is 100% true, it still does not rise to the level to warrant the action that the refs in that area have taken.



[Edited by TXMike on Oct 8th, 2002 at 07:30 AM]

A New Spin
 

According to today's Chicago Tribune, the 2 coaches have been charged with misdemeanors and both have also gone from the League for the time being.

Maybe the refs will go back on the field now??????

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...210080110oct08,0,4961993.story?coll=chi%2Dnewslocal%2Dhed

(You may not be able to see this story unless you register with the Tribune web site)

Response
 

Fair enough TX. You make some very good points. I have way more info than was presented here. From what you've seen, your opinions make good sense. The reality is that the league has ben forced to make some positive changes and the officials should now return to the field.

On the other hand, I don't uderstand where Telegrahams is coming from, but the story is getting way outta control.

What in the heck are we talking about? Block in the back? Nostrils flaring? Assigner's brother?

The kid who was accosted is 19. The assigner's brother is 40. The incident took place during a game involving 145lb players. No matter how bad the official the head guy for an entire football program should not have been leading the charge across the field to confront this player. The video shows that at least 3 parents also came rushing out of the stands and onto the field to berate this kid.

Maybe you should get the whole story.

Hey Coach
 

I saw a video tape of the game.

Since you don't actually know me, or for that matter have ever seen me officiate, let it go.

Have a nice day!

Re: Wrong hat
 

Well, if you are, you're an embarassment to the IHSA.

Yeah, so? I don't really care what you thoughts of my comments, anymore than you care what I think of yours. I was offended by the remarks you made to snrmike. I know you don't care but I'm certainly free to express that opinion and I did. You've been posting the same post on every football board on the Internet. I chose to only post here.

Good night and good day.

Mr BB Official,

Thank you for your response. It is very satisfying to find officials that are stalwart in their convictions. After noting the number of postings that you have on this particular forum, I can be certain that I will find spirited correspondence from you in the future. I wish you all the very best in all of your future officiating endeavors.

Sincerely,
tg

Here is what I see is the problem here and I am totally impartial, and figure the truth probaly lies somewhere in the middle of both sides.

First it is a 29-0 football game. One team is getting their butts kicked, and a coach starts screaming with two minutes left to go. They are not doing a very good job teaching kids how to accept losses very well.

Second the coaches came on to the field arguing. Read this toss flags and coach is ejected. According to the official he was screaming obscenities, and the unbiased reporter says video tape show coach being held back by others.

I dont care if this 19 old kid was the absolute worst official in the world, this type of behavior was claerly condoned by the league. The article in the paper states there was no written policy dealing with officials... Give me a break! They have never had a coach tossed? Yeah right! they never had problems with fans? Yeah right! It appears to me that if they truly had no written polcies they condone such rantings and ravings and potential bully tactics. Once a coach has been ejected it sold be at least a one game suspension. If the coach made verbal threats it should have been tacked on. (Remember this is the same coach who admitted in press it was ok to give kids dirutectics to los weight) This isnt a guy with a great track record for me!

Where I'm at we have a rope around the field, anyone crosses it they are ejected and the police escort them from the game site. Coach is ejected, they turn in their ID badges, they are suspended for a min of 1 game.

The league just doesnt have enough guts to deal with this coach and unsportsmanlike behavior. Everybody is talking about it being for the kids. It's not about the kids when coaches are allowed to act this way and get some sort of reprimand.

The "assault" as far a criminal statute should be dealt with by the local police officials and prosecutors. Sound like it is.

I for one would be consulting an attorney for a civil suit for assault and battery. Assault in civil law only requires an intentional act creating apprehension of fear and the means to carry it out immediately. Screaming and yelling and having to be held back would fall in my definition of assault. Battery just has to be an offensive touching. He bellies up to me even with the slightest bump, I'd say he has committed battery.
My guess is that the league officers could be named as well under some sort of negligent supervision/hiring theory. It would defintely get the leagues attention. Maybe that's the way these officials get the attention of the league to correct a problem that has not been addressed in 42 years.

Suing "the League" is a lot like suing "the Government" in many ways. Who will end up paying? The ones who did wrong? No. When you sue a govenrment all you do if you win is make your fellow citizens pay more in taxes. When you sue a non-profit and win all you do is end up eliminating the non-profit or making the members of the non-profit pay higher dues.

Suing over something like this is going way overboard IMHO. What "amages" will the refs be able to show? Heck they probably get bumped harder during a pick up basketball game or a romantic liaison than what he got bumped (I am not saying the bump was okay, just saying to look at it in perspective).

Holy Crap!
 

We actually agree on this point!

The goal is to make the situation better, not worse. No matter what has been reported, there have been several incidents involving officials' abuse throughout the history of this league. This incident wasn't even the worst.

However, the league has just recently adopted many measures to deal with situations such as these. It's a step in the right direction.

I wonder what kind of message the league's executive board sends to its members when they still keep the "coach" in question involved as the VP of the league, but fires the refs?

There are a few articles in the baseball section about how one youth league handles disputes with officiating. It was a very proactive and positive approach to an inherently volatile and competitive environment. It could easily be applied to any youth sport. In short, the chief-official is appointed and has the last say over all disputed rules situations. The example given requires the umpire-in-chief to be on call and available via cell phone. When a dispute arises, if the UIC isn't on-site, they call him/her and ask for a ruling. The UIC's ruling is FINAL. The league's board deals with discipline, the UIC deals with rules.

Check it out! There are links to other articles inside this one!

http://baseball.officiating.com/x/article/2500

The first link is good reading...
 

...but this is the one I was intially talking about:

http://baseball.officiating.com/x/article/2439

You do not know which Mike has been posting on this board, and I can assure you it's not who you think it is.

You have fallen into the same trap the ADs in this league have- if no physical contact took place, then any coach in that league is free to do, say, and act however he wants to, up to and including telling an official to leave the field instead of obeying that official's instructions. There is no doubt about that part, as the ADs have admitted as much when directly questioned about it.

You say diplomacy could have changed this, yet neither side of this equation can claim the high ground of having been completely above board in their approach. How do you defend a group that never, to this day, have spoken to either of the other 2 officials who worked that game? How do you defend a group that only questioned the official claiming he was physically contacted one time, and that with only half of the ADs present? Do you know they (the ADs) are now denying the official ejected the coach from the game, despite his direct statements otherwise? Do you know they believe that the official's behavior, the possibility he said something inflammatory to the coach, and the fact that the other two officials were so terrified over what to do that they did not forfeit the game, as all legitimate reasons for the coach's obnoxious behavior? The ADs in this league are giving that coach a pass- the refuse to punish him appropriately. You can argue whether banning him before his conviction on battery charges is too harsh, but there is no doubt he deserves punishment beyond the token slap on the wrist he has received.

Rich, they are going to sell you out just like they've sold out this young man. The coach is only suspended from coaching duties because of a clause in their bylaws requiring it when charges are filed. The ADs have consciously made a decision to NOT remove him as AD for his team, and to NOT remove him from being Vice President of the league. They voted TWICE, even after seeing the video that, while not showing clear evidence EITHER WAY that physical contact occured, clearly shows a coach who had lost control of himself, to do NOTHING to punish him for it.

You can make all the noise you want about having some inside information that no one else is privy to, but in reality you are one of the many apologists for this coach's unsportsmanlike behavior, and your attitude is, to most but not all officials I know, a disgrace and something we all fear. But, more power to you and the 15 licensed officials who are going to work in that league. God help you when the next coach is unhappy you aren't helping his team not get beat 29-0.

To Rich Graham
 

I have this long response drafted to you but I don't know if I should waste the bandwidth sending it to your personal email address. Your arrogance is really beginning to give me a headache.

Bottom line is:

You do not know me personally and you have never worked with me.

You just became an official recently and have probably never seen me work a game. I work primarily in the IHSAA and in the Prairie Conference in Illinois.

I posted a couple of links up there about how we should "fix" this problem. I did this because TXMike (among others) convinced me that I was part of a problem when we should be working towards the solution.

I would like to politely request that you start posting in the same fashion. I will no longer respond to any of your posts on this topic unless they have some constructive suggestions on how to prevent this from happening in your league again.

Youth Football Assault
 

I've been officiating for quite some years now. In fact, I'm also an assignment chairman myself. No, not in youth football, in high school football.

First, I believe it goes without saying, videos don't lie. I had the opportunity to view the original tape even before the media. Right off I was convinced we had a bump followed by two pushes when Mr. Trench rushed the field. Furthermore, even without the bump and push his behavior was unpardonable. In either scenario he must be banned from poisoning young people, both literally (lasix) and figuratively. His language alone was appalling not to mention his physical behavior.

Also, I know you Mr. Rich Graham. What you're doing by going back and officiating this league before an acceptable resolution is reached is disgusting. Disgusting, but not surprising...as I know you well. Mr. Graham, this is only your third year officiating...much like the young man who was assaulted. You are no better an official then he is...you both are inexperienced and have a great deal to learn. However, the younger official has proven he is NOT a coward, he has integrity and conviction. You, Rich my friend, need to learn from your much younger counterpart. Please add to your posts that you coached in the Palos organization for many years. Also add that your twin brother currently coaches in Palos. Also add in that you are very close friends with Louis Trench having spent many nights at his house eating pizza and drinking refreshments. Leaving this information out certainly destroys your credibility and objectivity, not to mention making issue of any integrity you might possess at large. You've not kept to the script, as they say. You've been caught offering to much erroneous information for having such little contact with the actual players in this event, outside of Mr. Trench. I know ALL the players in this saga...including "the assignment chairman and his brother" as well as Mr. Trench and Mr. Shaper. On the part of the youth league and its "board of directors"...lie and coverup are too weak of words to describe what they've done. But Mr. Graham...the conclusion that 4 of 5 Chicago television outlets, 4 Chicago area newspapers, and millions of viewers have come to is wrong. ONLY YOU and MR. Trench know the truth, right?

Mr. Graham, why have you not told in your posts that your dear friend Mr. Trench was forced out of the Crestwood Colts program some 25 years ago? Why did you not mention that an assistant of his ran across the field 3 years ago and punched an opposing coach from Orland Park in the face? Why did you not mention he fed horse steroids (lasix) to minor children risking their kidneys permanently? Why not Mr. Graham. You've tried to personally attack a number of excellent football officials. What's truly sickening is I'm told you don't have the courage to do this in person. You've been posting on "dozens of boards" which leads me to believe you have way too much time on your hands and cannot possibly be a productive member of society.

Finally, this weekend the approximately 40 good officials who did this league are meeting. I've been invited as have 9 of my fellow assignment chairmen, both youth and high school. We are all attending the meeting or sending trusted representatives in our place. We all stand united behind the good officials. Please notice you were not invited Mr. Graham, nor was one Jeff Balogh, one Rich Gust or one Johnny Bryant. I know both Mr. Balogh and Mr. Gust, however I've never had the "pleasure" of meeting Mr. Bryant. I think you boys ought to look up the definition of "black ball". Have a nice night.

[Edited by An Old Ref on Oct 10th, 2002 at 04:54 PM]

Ahah! So, now we do have the TRUTH!

Obviously, Mr. Graham was just covering his own a$$.

As I stated earlier, he is an embarassment to the IHSA.

Thank you, Old Ref, for your insight.

Thanks old ref! You certainly exposed Mr. Graham for what he is.....a lackey for the league. An embarrasment to the IHSA?????? Not strong enough words. For a rat is a rat is a rat. And there is a rat trap in place for this one.

The emperor has no clothes...
 

Thanks Old Ref for "exposing" the truth...

I don't think either Mike, especially TX, is espousing blind loyalty. There is a difference between blind loyalty and trying to be an agent for change. Officials refusing to call because of what occurred, regardless of the magnitude, are exercising one of the few ways we have to facilitate change. Your choosing to not support them is also your choice, but it is because of people that make your choice that the leverage is diminished. Your snide and sarcastic responses to the posts confronting what you did adds credence to their arguements. How much would it have cost you if it were your son who was assaulted and battered by the coach? How much would it have taken if it had been your child given drugs? It amazes me how cheap some people are willing to sell their loyalty.

Don't come here looking for sympathy or understanding. Most of the officials who post to this board don't do this for the money. I am probably in the minority when I say this is a part time job for me and the money is a big reason that I call. With that said, I also have to look at myself in the mirror in the morning. I couldn't support a coach that gave his kids drugs and assaulted an official. I couldn't support an organization that allowed the coach to continue to be involved. Your standards must be lower than the balance of the officials I know.

Old Ref,

I appreciate your frustration and share your sentiment about Mr. Graham. I wonder what the price per pound is for selling your spine. I hope he made a premium.

That being said, I would implore you to rethink your blackball decision. By doing so, you are sinking to his level and I would hope that you are not that kind of person. Officials should be chosen for assignments based on their skill, experience and the needs of the kids. I don't agree with what he did; frankly, it makes me ill. Blackballing smacks of politics and labor unions. The associations I have been exposed to have too much politics as it is, with qualified officials receiving sub-par games because they haven't made the right people happy. In addition, we aren't a union, we are independent contractors. By blackballing, we begin acting as an employer, which opens up another can of worms.

Mr. Graham should be assigned games according to his skills and qualifications. While this is hard for me to write, I still believe it is the right thing to do. If a coach wants to scratch him, that's another matter.

Why on earth would any officials group work for a league like the one in discussion?

It is not blind loyalty to the officiating cause. Its open-eyed and enlightened.

A league that has not adopted rules about coaching behavior in 42 years does not care what a coach does.

A league that vindicates a coach for being out of control whether there was an assault or not.

A league that does not suspend for an ejection of a coach.

Sounds like to me there isnt much on site security either.

Even if the officials did not boyott with all the stuff Ive seen, I would find another league to work.

In a lot of places, including where I am from, the behavior in not tolerated at all. We have an official on the league board, and know we need to work together. The board in question does not look like they have figured it out.

Glad I'm not them dealing with all the liability issues...

particularly using untrained officials who dont know the rules (post boycott). Just wait until a kid gets hurt (because a coach or dad is out there without a clue) oh well not my organization.

Rich Graham, you are an idiot.

I have no intention of ever working in the Southwest Midget Football League again until they act, as TWO local newspaper editorial boards printed on their editorial pages, to dismiss both coaches from the league.

I have never, ever, told any new assignment chairman I had any intention of working in that league again, and will show you the e-mails to prove it, you lying sack.

But, it is now clear you have your head up more than one behind in this league, you apologist disgrace to the officiating profession.

[Edited by stevegarbs on Oct 13th, 2002 at 08:49 AM]

New to this.
 

I'm new to this board and to this particular thread. I've carefully read through all three (3) pages of correspondence on this subject. If you'll allow my observations.

First, why is there so much discussion about coaches who have attacked a referee. It's a no-brainer, get rid of them permanently. I'm from the northern suburbs and I've seen this video a ton of times....it's grotesque.

Secondly, who is this snyping, irritating "telegrahams"? Apparently his name is Rich Graham? Why is he making personal attacks against individuals instead of sticking with the topic at hand, attacking referees? I see he has mentioned a "Hugg" guy a few times. Does this person even exist or is he a figment of Grahams imagination? Is he fighting his own shadow? And if this hugg guy exists it appears he has to much class and to many other things to do then to respond to this idiot. I haven't seen any post from this Hugg guy. What kind of coward attacks someone when they aren't even around? Graham, if you have a personal axe to grind with this Hugg guy take it off this board and approach him directly, in person, one on one, man to man. Kapish? And why haven't you addressed the poignant points An Old Ref brought up? Are you some kind of lap dog for this league? Answer those questions about your past coaching in that organization, you brother coaching with them now and all the other points An Old Ref brought up.

Thirdly, I emphatically agree that all referees must stick together and rally in the face of this crisis.

Finally, that Garbs guy is right...Graham is an idiot.

Just my obeservations.

[Edited by jemoore on Oct 12th, 2002 at 10:39 PM]

Where oh where did he go?
 

Anyone else curious as to what happened to all those insightful posts from our clueless colleague Mr. Graham?

You know that I am. I can only think that the Sysop hear is offended by the posts from RG and deleted them. I actually saw an email notifying me that he had responded yet again, but never saw that post, just the one from right before yours.

I have also been receiving disconnected and (slightly disturbing) rambling emails from people who have viewed our discussion threads.

Make sure you guys check out your profiles so that ANY personal info is hidden.

I also received a strange e-mail, supposedly from a player. This is the message:

thank you! i was a player in the game and i never saw my coaches touch the refs. thank you for standing up to that Snrmike guy.


The message was supposedly from [email protected]

This whole affair is almost too bizarre to be real.

I almost want to apologize because I feel guilty about posting this moronic incident in the first place.

Just hide all of your stuff. The posts actually came through this site, so I don't think the sender realizes what they can get off of this site.

I always like to hear from 14 year old players and their moms regarding the finer points of the game (which I haven't matered after 15 years of involvement at both coaching and officiating).

Yikes
 

SNRMike and TXMike (do I need to change my name to Mike?):

Thanks for sharing the info. I always keep my personal details hidden on these sites as best I can, and when I want someone to contact me via e-mail I put that in the message. I am sorry if either of you have received unwanted messages, believe me I have a bunch from Mr. Graham already.

And thanks also to TXMike for engaging us on the other side of this debate in a bit more constructive fashion. I still disagree with your posts here and on McGriff's board, but have enjoyed the exchange.

It is possible that Graham deleted his own messages...

Well, he failed to delete some of his ramblings on other boards.

I guess if this gets deleted, we'll know it wasn't Mr. Graham. ;)

What boards was this posted on?
 

Just curious...what boards were those two ramblings posted on. I'd like to visit those boards as well.

I used to be an official in the league in question. Until this year anyway. I am tired of the officials having to try and MAKE the league do what is obvious.
In an article in a local paper one of the directors of this league stated that in 42 years there has never been a physical incident between a coach and an official. I beg to differ. I have officiated in this league for 13 years. About ten years ago an official was hit by a car in the parking lot of Palos. The offending coach was from the then named Crestwood Colts. The official went to the hospital and thankfully had no lasting injuries. The coach was arrested and charged. As happened in this instance the officials of the league asked for a special meeting of the board to address the occurrence. What was the outcome of that meeting? Unbelievably the board refused to discipline this coach. The assignment chairman at that time threatened a walkout......just as now. Guess what? The league caved in and no games were lost. My question is why must officials,by threatening action against the league,FORCE THE LEAGUE TO DO WHAT THEY SHOULD BE DOING ANYWAY? It is apparent to me that the league has no respect for decency.
If the league had done its job in 1995 the coach in question from this incident would have been gone then. In that year he was accused but never criminally charged with giving a 10 year old player of his the diuretic drug LASIX in order to lose weight. Again he was never criminally charged but he was quoted in local newspapers as suppporting the drugs one time use. I for one will NEVER officiate in this league again unless and until there is radical changes in the makeup of the leagues Board of Directors. I suspect this will not happen anytime soon as they seem to be devoid of any concious ability to rule themselves....and see right from wrong. We as officials must stand up and take the higher moral ground.Stay united.There are plenty of games to work in other leagues that have a working moral compass.

Re: What boards was this posted on?
 

http://www.nfhs.org/Forum/nfhs/Forum3/HTML/000500.html

http://football.refs.org/footballboa....cgi?read=5135

http://www.gmcgriff.com/refonline/ww...sages/684.html

http://www.gmcgriff.com/refonline/ww...sages/689.html