Pick your ruling
 

Based on NFHS rules.....

A's ball 1st and 10 at B's 40. A17 throws a legal forward pass which is intercepted by B22 in his own endzone. B22 runs around in his endzone and is about to be tackled. Then B22 hands the ball forward to B30. B30 takes the ball all the way 100 plus yards for a touchdown!

pick your ruling...

A--foul against B22 for illegal forward handing. Penalize 5 yards from B's 20 yardline. 1st and 10 for B at their own 15.

B-- No foul,, legal play,, touchdown for B

C-- foul against B for illegal forward handing. End of the run is the basic spot. Foul is behind the basic spot. 100 plus yards behind, in fact, the foul is in B's endzone. SAFETY for A!

The correct answer is C but get ready for an argument!

LOL,,, why do say that? What makes you think an arguement is about to take place? This place is all about learning and trying to get better..LOL

The argument will be from the team B coach, not from other officials. I would add that argument will likely result in an USC on the B coach as well because he will call you names he should not use.

C. And not only will you not get an argument, you'll get the coach on that side not even cheering the 100 yard run as he'll have already seen your flag fly high in the endzone... and coaches know what a flag in the endzone usually means.

Exactly. I think most here are going to agree with C for the answer...the coach may not be so understanding.

A USC is likely forthcoming...except maybe if you're in Texas.

Ok,,, hang onto your hats. What if I think the correct answer is B??

NFHS rules....

Take a look at 2-19-2 for the definition of forward handing. Make a note of the fact that it talks about YARD LINES.

Then, go take a look at 2-26-7 and you'll see that YARD LINE actually has a definition too. And their aint no yard lines in the promised land that we call the END ZONE.

So, what I'm basically saying is this....can we have illegal forward handing in the end zone? I'm saying no.

Someone might make reference to rule 7-3-3.... and I still go back to the definition of forward handing.

Ha...ha-ha-ha. Yeah, right...go with that ruling. "Forward handing is ok in the end zone after a change in possession because there's no yard lines in the end zone."
Couldn't wait to see the review by any observer after that.

Hey Mike,,, if you want to disagree with me, thats cool. But at least do it with some sort of rule reference that backs up your claim.

I'll admit that this is a stretch. But this board has been DEAD. I'd like to see some threads started with some interesting plays or ideas. This is what I dreamed up to try and get that started.

But I'm very comfortable with my knowledge of the rules, I can promise you that.

Nope. Here's 2-26-7:
"ART. 7 . . . A yard line is any line and its vertical plane parallel to the end lines.
The yard lines, marked or unmarked, in the field of play are numbered in yards
from a team’s own goal line to the middle of the field."

The yard lines IN THE FIELD OF PLAY are numbered and (some of them) marked. It doesn't follow that the end zone has no yard lines, just that they will not be marked or numbered.

Indeed, given the first sentence of this rule, I would say that there MUST be yard lines in the end zone, since there are vertical planes in the end zone that are parallel to the end lines.

So forward handing IS defined in the end zone, and still a foul.

What you're trying to advocate here is not a stretch. It's just wrong. And if you want to try to hang your hat on forward handing is ok in the end zone because there's no yard lines there, then that's an interesting way to feel comfortable.

I don't think he's hanging his hat on this so much as looking for a rules justification to disallow answer B. I believe MByron has done just that.

That'd be consistent with rugby, where you can't be offside behind your goal line.

As opposed to the NCAA definition of yard lines, which makes specific reference to the field of play.

True, but the definition of yard lines is irrelevant to the discussion in NCAA, as no mention of yard lines exists in the NCAA rule regarding forward handing.

But isn't the fact that the people at Fed are cognizant of yet omitted that detail that exists in NCAA, evidence that the definition in Fed is meant to include the end zones?

Nope

Gentlemen,

I'm a new poster to this forum, however have been following it for a while and have learned a lot. One question about the subject ruling, specifically the asserted answer of C. How can we have a SAFETY for A when it was A's PASS that was the force that put the ball into B's End Zone. It is clear from the articulation of the Situation that B got the ball with "Clean Hands" in their end zone and that the ball did not leave the end zone before the ball was forward handed to a fellow team mate (resulting in a foul by B after the COP (by Rule 7-3-2 & 7-3-3). Where in the rules (pls reference) does the force of the ball become dismissed and not a factor when involving the opponent's end zone that would support the ruling of a Safety for A ??? If the ball had become dead in B's end zone would we not have a Touchback (Rule 8-5-3-D) with the Basic Spot being the succeeding spot under Rule 10-4-5-D ? Does B's penalty in their end zone trump/supersede the force that put the ball there ??? I'm at a loss here. :confused:

You are right that B did not put the ball in the end-zone, however take a look at 10-5-4.

ART. 4 . . . If the offensive team throws an illegal forward pass from its end
zone or commits any other foul for which the penalty is accepted and measurement
is from on or behind its goal line, it is a safety.

Since the offensive team (B since they are in possession at the time) threw an illegal forward pass from the end zone, the penalty results in a safety.

I thought it was forward handing. :confused:

Welpe,

Thanks for your response. I went back and read 10-4 & 10-5, to include as many times before, Rule 2 Definitions. Without the understanding of Rule 2 and the "Fundamentals of Football" one is hard pressed to gain an understanding of the rest of the rules. Interestingly enough in Rule 2-SECTION 43 TEAM DESIGNATIONS we find the following :

ART. 1 . . . The offense is the team which is in possession of the ball. The
opponent is the defense.
ART. 2 . . . A is the team which puts the ball in play. The opponent is B.
ART. 3 . . . K is the team which legally kicks the ball during the down. The
opponent is R.
ART. 4 . . . Team designations (A and B, K and R) are retained until the ball is
next marked ready for play.

Throughout the years of officiating I've understood that the Team Designations that start with the "Ready for Play" continue throughout the down, regardless of the action by any player/team, status of the ball or whether there was a COP until the next "Ready for Play". This would be supported by 2-43-4 above. However, 2-43-1, by itself, without the addition of article 2-4, may imply that it can change (I'm still not totally convinced). Right, wrong or indifferent, I've always believed that team designations with regards to rules application never changed during a down. Based on the later, that puts my understanding of the application of rule 10-5-4 at odds with the play situation/scenario. Rule 10-5-4 taken at face value and as "Plain language" would suggest that Team A (the Offense at the start of the Ready for Play) would have to commit an illegal forward pass or some other infraction behind its goal line that was subsequently accepted by Team B (the Defense at the start of the Ready for Play) in which the spot of the penalty or its enforcement was the Goal Line or behind the GL, resulting in a Safety. Furthermore, it doesn't specifically treat/address COP's. Clearly, in the stated scenario, since it was Team B (the Defense), that gained possession of Team A's Offensive PASS via an interception in their/B end zone(EZ) with the down not ending with that single action (loose ball play with the ball remaining live with B in Team/Player possession) doesn't in my mind change Team Designations or Labels under 2-43. Looking at Rule 8-5 in general, shows consistent language where the designation of B after a COP continues to be B and similarly for A.

So again, in this scenario, I'm still wrestling with the facts of Force, Team Designations/Labels and what the "Basic Spot" and the Spot of Enforcement is under 10-4 & 10-5. If I just simply look at the action, I've got A making a bad Pass that a B player took advantage of by intercepting it in his EZ. If he had downed the ball in his EZ, then we would come out to the 20 and have 1st and 10 B (He got the ball with Clean Hands, made no mistakes after the interception - life is good - he's a hero), However in the stated scenario, since he elected to gain an advantage by getting the ball to a Teammate that he thought had better field position and did so incorrectly, the asserted ruling of C (Safety), states that we are not going to reward him with the ball at all, instead, we are going give his opponents 2 points and make him kick the ball away to give his opponents another shot at scoring. Something isn't right here. In my gut, hitting him with a distance penalty that took away any advantage that he hoped to gain with an illegal handing after a good and legal interception is absolutely appropriate (enforce the penalty from the succeeding spot), however to award his opponent with two points AND make him give up the ball ,,,,,, WOW ...... I'm going to bury myself in the Redding's Guide, Case Book and go look at my NCAA rules.

Although you offer a reasonable explanation and reference to the rules, I really need to resolve this in my own mind. Thanks for making me really DIG and learn.

You answered your own question with this rule posting.

Article 1 states the offense is the team in possession and article 4 doesn't state the team that snaps the ball retains this designation throughout the down. This use of wording is intentional. Whoever has the ball at that point in time is the offense. They may be team A, B, K, or R depending on their status at the start of the play.

bisonlj, et al

The Referee blows the whistle marking the ball "Read for Play". The Down begins when the ball becomes Live (Snap/Kick) and ends when the ball becomes Dead. Unless I'm reading 2-43-4 incorrectly, it suggests that after the RFP and before the next RFP, the Team Designations at the start of that Down ARE RETAINED until the NEXT RFP (Where the team designations may be different due to a COP during the Down). Correct ? Does this not imply that the A/B (Offense/Defense) and K/R (Kicker/Receiver) Labels do not change either ?

"A" and "B" remain constant. The team on offense and the team on defense can change during a down if there is a change of possession.

The definitions correctly allow for this possibility, which is why you don't see "A = the team on offense" but rather "A = the team that puts the ball in play."

Whoops, sorry, it is forward handing. At least I had the forward part right.

Fortunatley, despite my gaffe, the rule still applies. :)

Vt, the others are correct. Only Team A and B remain consistent throughout the down.

There are probably some case plays to this effect but I don't have access to a book now.

Force is only one way a safety may be awarded. The offense committing a foul that is enforced from their endzone is another.

Ponder this simpler play.

Team B intercepts a forward pass at their 5 yard line and the runner is downed at the B-10.

During the return, B32 clips A20 in Team B's endzone. What do you have?

Canadian Ruling
 

Interestingly enough, in Canada we do not award a safety for this. We let the "punishment fit the crime." If Team B intercepts the ball in the end zone and then commits a foul in the end zone (with the ball in the EZ), we award the ball to B on the 20 yard line just as if they were tackled in the end zone.

I pity the R who just sprinted 100 yards, jogged back 100 yards while the BJ just stood there and watched is flag.

VT,
don't overcomplicate it. It's simple penalty enforcement rules.
A's pass put the ball into the enzone & B caught it. If they run it back all the way, if they run it back out to some yard line, if the play ends in touchback, the Basic Spot becomes where the run ends except for the touchback, which by rule moves the BS to the 20 yard line.
So, now you consider the foul. Team B is in possession, with clean hands, and has fouled behind the Basic Spot. Where do you enforce it from? It's running play enforcement so.....spot of the foul due to the all-but-one prin. The spot is in B's endzone...and what is the result of having to enforce a penalty from their endzone? Safety.

If the BJ did that, he didn't continue to officiate the play as he was supposed to so after you catch your breath (maybe the following Tuesday), beat that BJ to a pulp for quitting on the play.

If Offense and Defense didn't change, and A and B didn't change, why would there be any need for both separate designations ... and why would Offense and Defense be omitted from the 4th section of that definition?

It very clearly is telling you that the offense is the team with the ball ... and that this changes when possession changes, while A, B, K, and R do not change regardless of what happens to possession.

Gents (In specific, welpe, bisonlj, mbyron & Mike L)

Thanks for your clarification/dissertations. They have all helped in resolving my uncertainty and made me much more aware of the language used in Rule 10. Part of learning : How do you eat a Whale, One bite at a time (and I'm still chewing !!!) Don't misconstrue, I'm not declaring mastery here. Heck, we all know you have to live the rules and even if you had 4 or more life times, you'd still never see it all.

Aside, Mike L, you hit the nail on the head. We can over think things at times. Running Play Enforcement indeed. Although admittedly, revisiting Rule 2-43 helped out a lot (in this case bisonlj was the straight man and called it dead nuts, which put welpe's rule reference 10-5-4 right into place).

BTW, Bisonlj, as a BJ, I'd be following up on the play, right up until the point that I relayed the play to my LJ, HL or heck, even my U and then, I've got clean up, trailing behind the last players (leave no player behind watching for shenanigans). Besides, most of our side officials have fairly good wheels (they'd work it to their side back to the GL with the R). But truth be told, it's a blast to see your U go stride for stride with a runner for a while following a play (just need to have an extra Snickers/Energy Bar with you for him later). God bless those guys that work in the middle/meat grinder. It's bad enough to have a smart receiver with defenders hot on their heels run right at you using you/BJ as a pick point all while you are trying to fade out/away and get to the GL. Nothing like running, fading and watching the play all whilst hearing the thunder of hoofs at your back. Gets the adrenaline going !!!

Good points VT. My BJ comment was busting waltjp's chops. I know him personally so it was somewhat of an inside joke. You describe very well what the BJ should do. If the many players hang back by the goal line, you probably won't move much on this play.

Glad to help out!

Interesting question. I hope that I would view where the foul occurred and enforce from the basic spot. Thus I would have a safety. Jim

Sorry I misread the interception part of the change of possession. forget my quick ruling I have to think on this one. ;) Jim

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

Team B 1D/10 @ B-20.

Which is why you probably like the Canadian ruling better: a touchback (though we don't call it a touchback).

While there is a rules reference as to why it is 2 points for A in US codes, the Cdn approach is always about HOW the ball entered the EZ; INT or fumble recovery gives a TB.

Is the ball dead at that point in Canada? I would have thought you'd still enforce the foul (with the 20 as spot of enforcement) if it were not.

Yes to your question.

The penalty for an offside pass (a pass completed closer to your opponent's GL) is simply that the ball goes back to the spot of the pass's origin, and downs continue. There is no yardage component.

Since the ball was INT'd in the EZ, it's like the ball is dead there. So we revert back to the ruling that say an INT in the EZ is a TB. No score.

[QUOTE=mbyron;685318]Nope. Here's 2-26-7:
"ART. 7 . . . A yard line is any line and its vertical plane parallel to the end lines. The yard lines, marked or unmarked, in the field of play are numbered in yards from a team’s own goal line to the middle of the field."

I'm without my rule book as I post but above is a quote of Art 7 from the first page. if it is correct then it also says "from a team's own goal line..." which would exclude the end zone. So the point made in that post is invalid by definition as I see it.

Further (wish I had my rulebook with me), I am not convinced basic spot enforcement applies against B, in B's endzone, when A is responsible for putting the ball there. On the fly as R I am giving B the ball at the 20 then penalizing them 5 so 1st and 10 from the 15...until convinced otherwise.

Anybody have a casebook example one way or the other...always willing to learn but when in doubt fairness gets the nod and 1st and ten at the 15 is the fairest enforcement.

You are correct, the basic spot would be the 20 yard line. But, this is a foul committed by the offense behind the basic spot, the "one" in the "all but one" principle. Ergo, the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul.

[quote=whitehat;687065]Not Fed and not exactly the same but similar...

NCAA:
Approved Ruling 10-2-2:
XXVI. B1 intercepts a legal forward pass (not a try) deep in his end zone and is unable to get out of the end zone, where he is downed. During the run, B2 clips A1 in the end zone.
RULING: Penalty—Safety. The 20-yard line is the basic spot. (Rules 8-5-1-b and 10-2-2-d-2-a).

NFL (2009)
Approved Ruling 8.5
A forward pass is intercepted by a defensive player in his end zone. While in the end zone, he attempts to pass backward. The pass goes forward, hits the ground on the 1 yard line and is recovered by the first passing team.
Ruling: Safety. Forward pass not form scrimmage in the end zone.

I'm sure someone will come along with an applicable NFHS casebook play

It says the yard lines IN THE FIELD OF PLAY are NUMBERED from the goal line. The definition of a yard line is the first sentence - notably ANY line parallel to the end lines.

I'm currently looking at the 2007 casebook, but I'm pretty sure this hasn't changed.

This addresses the foul in the end zone part of things, but not the forward handing bit. I'm convinced you can have forward handing in the end zone, but I'll run this one by our interpreter anyway.

whitehat's misuse of the quote feature makes it seem as if your post disagrees with mine, when in fact you're reiterating what I said in my post.

To put the point yet another way: the rule that mentions yard lines "in the field of play" makes a point about numbering, not about the existence of yard lines.

I don' know, guys - I'm having a hard time with yard lines in the endzone. If they are there, what would they be used for? It seems to me the endzone is just that - a big zone at the END of the playing field.

However, if A1 drops back into endzone after the snap and pitches/passes forward to an elibible receiver/back still in the endzone, I would rule that incomplete because the pass was forward.

Based on that, I have to rule illegal forward handing.

[QUOTE=whitehat;687065][QUOTE=mbyron;685318]Nope. Here's 2-26-7:
"ART. 7

Further (wish I had my rulebook with me), I am not convinced basic spot enforcement applies against B, in B's endzone, when A is responsible for putting the ball there. On the fly as R I am giving B the ball at the 20 then penalizing them 5 so 1st and 10 from the 15...until convinced otherwise.



Basic spot enforcement always applies. If B had not carried it out, basic spot would be 20 - since B did carry it out, basic spot is end of run. All but one principle still applies either way - foul behind basic spot, safety.
10-6: Unless otherwise listed in Section 4 and 5, a penalty for a foul occurring during a play is enforced from the basic spot with the exception of a foul by the offense which occurs behind the basic spot