block below the waist????

JimNayzium · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Sep 22, 2002, 10:46pm

at my rules clinic this summer I was perplexed by the response i got to the block below the waist rule...it has completely changed the way we coach on this matter...i wanted to see your responses to this...

Our head of officials clearly stated that if a defender puts his hands on a blocker then he saw him coming, had a chance to defend himself, and therefore even if the block was on the knee cap, and the blocker was looking at the ground, the spirit of the rule is to protect the defender and if he saw him coming all is well....

I know that in Texas/NCAA everything is different, but we are NF and i thought below the waist meant belwo the waist....I understand that if a defender pushes a blocker and causes himself to blocked below the waist then that is different, but i have film of an opppenent clearly in the open field and on special teams mind you diving at my defenders ankles, and out of pure instincts my defender places his hands on the blockers back on the way down after being cut blocked and therefore we got no call....it seems this means i need to caoch my defenders to make sure you play with your hands over your heads so if you get cut you wont touch the blocker...

anyway after much discussion, i was promised it would be enforced this way, so i gave in and started telling my blockers to aim for the thigh pad and the defender will put his hands on you and you will be fine. we have done this in all four games, and not one call for block below the waist in the open field....

any thooughts on this.....

sportswriter · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 23, 2002, 04:20am

Quote:

Originally posted by JimNayzium
i gave in and started telling my blockers to aim for the thigh pad and the defender will put his hands on you and you will be fine. we have done this in all four games, and not one call for block below the waist in the open field....

Be lucky you don't play north of the border. The only folks that can block below the waist in NHFS are in the free block zone (what we call the mayhem zone) with conditions. Both the blocked and blocking player must be in the mayhem zone, and there's a zillion other things I can't remember at this hour (I don't usually ref NHFS).
However, one thing is true: open field blocks below the waist are illegal. Hand contact does not negate that infraction. If a blocker starts the block above the waist, in the front, and the contacted is maintained while the blocked player turns - this isn't a block from behind. If through sustained contact, a block above/in front ends up as a block from behind or a block below, that's legal.

You are coaching your kids to perform an illegal act.

devdog69 · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 23, 2002, 08:21am

Quote:

Originally posted by sportswriter

Quote:

Originally posted by JimNayzium
i gave in and started telling my blockers to aim for the thigh pad and the defender will put his hands on you and you will be fine. we have done this in all four games, and not one call for block below the waist in the open field....

Be lucky you don't play north of the border. The only folks that can block below the waist in NHFS are in the free block zone (what we call the mayhem zone) with conditions. Both the blocked and blocking player must be in the mayhem zone, and there's a zillion other things I can't remember at this hour (I don't usually ref NHFS).
However, one thing is true: open field blocks below the waist are illegal. Hand contact does not negate that infraction. If a blocker starts the block above the waist, in the front, and the contacted is maintained while the blocked player turns - this isn't a block from behind. If through sustained contact, a block above/in front ends up as a block from behind or a block below, that's legal.

You are coaching your kids to perform an illegal act.

Jim, the officials in your area have obviously had much discussion about these blocks and have determined that they are going to allow them. They are basing this decision on Case Plays of 2-3-7 and the play shown in the Simplified and Illustrated book on page 19, also of Rule 2-3-7. It does, in fact, say "...the player being blocked can generally protect himself against significant lower-leg contact if he has his hands on the blocker during initial contact". I am surprised you have not been called for it if your kids are doing it regularly and intentionally. I believe you would see the flags come out in our area.

BktBallRef · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 23, 2002, 09:10am

Jim, the information you have received is correct.

Sportswriter, he is not teaching his kids to perform an illegal act.

Devdog, if the guys in your area are calling this BBTW, they're calling it incorrectly.

NF 2-3-7
Blocking below the waist is making initial contact below the waist from the front or side against an opponent other than a runner.

Note the words, "initial contact." When the defender sticks his hand out to ward off the block, and initial contact is made on the hand, the defender has just made the block legal for the blocker.

Our state deputy director has been trying to get the NF Football Rules Committee to change this for years but hasn't been successful. I don't like the rule anymore than you guys do but that is the rule.

nvfoa15 · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 23, 2002, 03:24pm

Jim,

I agree with BBR. This has been the interpretation of this rule for many years. Your head of officials is correct, the purpose of the rule is to prevent injuries. If the "blockee" can put his hands out and contact the blocker (no matter how low to the ground the hands are) he is able to defend himself and prevent injury.

Where I officiate (Northern Virginia) we don't have this problem. We have impressed upon coaches at rules clinics the rules of BBW, in particular that it can only occur in the FBZ.

sportswriter · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 24, 2002, 01:09am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Note the words, "initial contact."

Key term should be "primary." That's why rules committees need writers.

JimNayzium · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 24, 2002, 09:50am

thanks bbr, my head official is right i guess, but bottome line is i see the same ten officials over the season, so it only matters how they see it, not what the rules says you know....

BBR? theoretically if my players pad hit the thigh pad prior ot the defenders hands touching me, but his hands do touch me just after contact, and probably because of my contact, how would you call that?

BktBallRef · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 24, 2002, 09:54am

Quote:

Originally posted by sportswriter
That's why rules committees need writers.

You'll get no argument from me on that!

Quote:

Originally posted by JimNayzium
BBR? theoretically if my players pad hit the thigh pad prior ot the defenders hands touching me, but his hands do touch me just after contact, and probably because of my contact, how would you call that?

I have a foul.

JimNayzium · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 25, 2002, 09:55am

you have a foul...amen brother, this is what i tried to explain to my refs, but their interpretation is if the defenders hands touched the blocker, no matter when, he saw him coming and had a chance todefend himself...as long as they are consistent, which so far they have been, then i can live with it...oh well

sportswriter · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 25, 2002, 10:23am

Quote:

Originally posted by JimNayzium
you have a foul...amen brother, this is what i tried to explain to my refs, but their interpretation is if the defenders hands touched the blocker, no matter when, he saw him coming and had a chance todefend himself...as long as they are consistent, which so far they have been, then i can live with it...oh well

But the moment you hit a playoff, with new officials, yer in trouble.

This is why areas/regions should have regular clinics to ensure consistency.

JimNayzium · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 25, 2002, 10:10pm

actually in small private school league we will all have the same officials for the big games....good and bad...once you yell at them you are on their bad side, and you know they will be back.

devdog69 · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 26, 2002, 02:07pm

Jim, contrary to popular belief, just because you object to a call or two or "yell at us" we do not all nor should any of us hold a grudge for the next time we see you. If you are a gentleman and treat us with the same respect we give you, your occasional tantrum will be forgotten very quickly. We realize that we make mistakes and/or don't see everything that happens on a football field. I have found most officials have a "I can see where they are coming from attitude" in most cases, often admitting that they too would have been very upset where they in the coach's shoes. I know tomorrow night I have a coach on the road that I had at home last week and he gave me a royal a** chewing last week but it didn't upset me at the time and it didn't upset me after the game and other than to laugh about it it is forgotten. Btw, the reason it didn't upset me was I knew it was probably somewhat deserved. I was standing a couple of feet from two players near the end of a blowout (he was winning), talking to them to "help each other up" and somehow missed an alleged unsportsmanlike act. I just didn't see it and couldn't call anything therefore, even though I was fairly confident that it had happened. So of course, he went ballistic and I let him vent for a few seconds, until the assistant flew off and then I put a quick halt to the nonsense.