Down Lineman being set

[pat727]

During Superbowl Manning audibles several times after players go down in 3 point stance...Several times the linemen would lift their hand and turn towards Manning to hear play...I thought this was illegal since they were previously set.....Thanks...Pat

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by pat727

During Superbowl Manning audibles several times after players go down in 3 point stance...Several times the linemen would lift their hand and turn towards Manning to hear play...I thought this was illegal since they were previously set.....Thanks...Pat

There's an exception for "calling [players] off the line" to receive new signals.

[pat727]

Thanks Robert...Can I exploit that at the Youth level?...We follow HS rules...Thanks..Pat

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by pat727

Thanks Robert...Can I exploit that at the Youth level?...We follow HS rules...Thanks..Pat

We had a thread about that recently either here or at Coach Huey's. The answer is yes, provided that "exploit" doesn't mean "use insincerely".

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by pat727

Thanks Robert...Can I exploit that at the Youth level?...We follow HS rules...Thanks..Pat

REPLY: Not sure I fully undeerstand Robert's answer, but if you have your interior linemen down with a hand on or near the ground, they CANNOT lift out of that stance unless there's some sort of timeout (charged or officials). They're 'locked' until the snap.

[HLin NC]

I don't think they are lifting their hand. They do turn back towards the QB to hear the signal but they do this while contorting around from the hips. Otherwise they have their arms resting on their thighs.

[JRutledge]

It is big myth that people seem to hold that they must be completely still. The only thing that is illegal is they cannot simulate the snap. Nothing is illegal about moving your head or even your body to hear an audible. And yes if the hand is down they cannot lift it off the ground, but that is about the only restriction of movement.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by pat727

Thanks Robert...Can I exploit that at the Youth level?...We follow HS rules...Thanks..Pat

Actually I see now it's not in NFL rules, but unless the National Federation of State High School Assoc'ns has changed it, their false start provision's exception reads: "...unless the movement is caused by an irregularity such as calling players off the line for receiving a new signal...."

[mikesears]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Actually I see now it's not in NFL rules, but unless the National Federation of State High School Assoc'ns has changed it, their false start provision's exception reads: "...unless the movement is caused by an irregularity such as calling players off the line for receiving a new signal...."

No such rule currently exists and there hasn't been such a rule in the eleven years of high school football I've worked.

BUT, I will say this. In a YOUTH game (kids younger than Jr High), I am not likely to flag this action unless it is used to simulate the snap. I MIGHT mention it to the coach when I have a chance, but this action doesn't disadvantage anyone at that level.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by pat727

Thanks Robert...Can I exploit that at the Youth level?...We follow HS rules...Thanks..Pat

It's probably going to be a while before your "Youth Football" players have to adjust to NFL rules, and they'd be better served if they concentrated on the NFHS standards, which don't allow for a lot of "resetting".

NFHS: 7-1-7, "After the ball is marked ready for play and before the snap begins no false start shall be made by any A player. It is a false start if:

a. A shift or feigned charge simulates action at the snap.

b. Any act is clearly intended to cause B to encroach.

c. Any A player on his line between the snapper and the player on the end of the line, after having placed a hand(s) on or near the ground, moves his hand(s) or makes any quick movement."

All judgment, as to whether specific movements by A players violates the above provisions belong EXCLUSIVELY to the field officials. Younger players often try and emulate and imatate what they see on TV, but that can cause unnecessary problems that coaching, specifically to the NFHS standard, should avoid.

[KWH]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Actually...unless the National Federation of State High School Assoc'ns has changed it, their false start provision's exception reads: "...unless the movement is caused by an irregularity such as calling players off the line for receiving a new signal...."

Robert,
I concur with Mike Sears and will add that no such rule exisits or has ever exsisted in my 32 years of NFHS Football.
Perhaps you are confusing it with another code?

As for youth level games: Remind them, remind them, and then re-remind them. If you do find it necessary to throw "any" flag in a youth level game, you should also find the time to make darn sure the kid you threw it on understands why you threw it. That's why some of these are called developmental leagues.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by KWH

Robert,
I concur with Mike Sears and will add that no such rule exisits or has ever exsisted in my 32 years of NFHS Football.
Perhaps you are confusing it with another code?

No, but it did exist within the past 32 years. 1980 7-1-2:

"After the ball is ready-for-play and before the snap, no false start shall be made by any A player. A false start includes.... It is also a false start if any player on the line between the snapper and the player on the end of the line, after having placed a hand on or near the ground, moves his hand or makes any quick movement unless the movement is caused by an irregularity such as calling players off the line for receiving a new signal or B stepping into the neutral zone too soon. If the false start...."

I don't know when they took it out of there if they have, but since that was only 29 seasons ago, it's within the past 32.

I don't see what application B's stepping into the NZ had, considering that under the rules at the time (and still), the encroachment would've killed the RFP anyway. They probably forgot to make a conforming change some time previous, before that was a foul that killed the RFP.

[mikesears]

Originally Posted by KWH

As for youth level games: Remind them, remind them, and then re-remind them. If you do find it necessary to throw "any" flag in a youth level game, you should also find the time to make darn sure the kid you threw it on understands why you threw it. That's why some of these are called developmental leagues.

+1. You said this a whole lot better than I did.

So to clafiy my own statement for other, I didn't mean to imply that I wouldn't talk to them to try to get it corrected. I just don't think a flag for the first offense at a youth level is the way to go about having that conversation.

[KWH]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

No, but it did exist within the past 32 years. 1980 7-1-2:

"After the ball is ready-for-play and before the snap, no false start shall be made by any A player. A false start includes.... It is also a false start if any player on the line between the snapper and the player on the end of the line, after having placed a hand on or near the ground, moves his hand or makes any quick movement unless the movement is caused by an irregularity such as calling players off the line for receiving a new signal or B stepping into the neutral zone too soon. If the false start...."

I don't know when they took it out of there if they have, but since that was only 29 seasons ago, it's within the past 32.

I don't see what application B's stepping into the NZ had, considering that under the rules at the time (and still), the encroachment would've killed the RFP anyway. They probably forgot to make a conforming change some time previous, before that was a foul that killed the RFP.

Robert-
Thanks for your correction and historical update!
Of further interesting note, the NFHS eliminated "Offside" during scrimmage downs in 1976 and during free kicks in 1977. Therefore, in 1980, "the irregularity of B stepping into the neutral zone too soon" should have been met with a encroachment flag against B, rather than any type of "wave off or do-over" flag for a false start by A.
All things considered, after reading up on this obscure, defunct, exception; and then subseqently putting away a large glass of Makers Mark, I should sleep much better tonight...

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by KWH

Robert-
Thanks for your correction and historical update!

More like a back-date.