Ariz/GB fumble
 

Sorry guys, looking for another explanation...

For those of you who haven't seen it, in OT, Arizona is sacking QB Rodgers when he drops the ball, it bounces off his foot and into the hands of an Arizona LB who runs it in for a TD. Game over.

What I don't understand is the DL who was sacking the QB was with out a doubt grabbing the QBs face mask. Here's a picture... http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townn..._dc=1263188945. Video: YouTube - Aaron Rodgers Fumble NFC Wildcard Game HD

So my question(s)...
1) Aside from an official not seeing it (I saw it from different angles during replays), any reason why this wouldn't be a flag?
2) If there was a facemask penalty, I assume GB gets the ball back (no turnover), +15 yards, 1st & 10?

Thanks

yes grabbing
 

Yes he is grabbing the mask. In order for there to be a penalty he has to twist and or turn the mask. After the intitial contact with the face mask Rodger'd doesnt' move at all....so no there isn't a penalty here. Especially with the care that NFL R's take in protecting the QB and the R has a great look at it. There just isn't enough there...

It's a 5-yard face mask. There's no such animal in the NFL anymore.

That said, the R would have a hard time seeing that -- he's bagging the fumble and watching the ball being retrieved -- so if there was a turn of the mask it would be a stretch to assume it would've been gotten by Green, although the U may have had a flag there.

I'm glad the ball was picked in the air, otherwise it might've been a replay of the tuck rule.

+1

+1

Thanks guys.

Can someone help me out with NFL rule?

(btw, I completely agree that there is not enough there for a 15 yard facemask.)

but I'm having another conversation with someone who's claiming that there can be no penalty (facemask or otherwise) while a fumble is loose.

I pointed out that in NCAA, you can do certain things--like block in the back or clip--in an effort to recover a loose ball. but you still can't hold, facemask, slug, etc.

problem is, I think some people have the perception that "all bets are off" when someone fumbles in the NFL.

and in fact, that's what some are telling me. but that can't be the case, right? I mean, there's no way that the NFL rules allow a player to kick another player simply because someone fumbled 30 yards downfield.

that simply makes no sense. but since I don't have an NFL rulebook, I can't be 1000% sure. little help here. thanks!

PackersFTW should be here to take up the slack any time now.

Something I don't think has been mentioned, but could there have also been an illegal kicking/batting call on Rodgers when the ball went loose? If you watch the youtube video posted, at around 1:36, I believe it's pretty clear that Rodgers intentionally kicked the ball while it was in the air. If anyone could give me the NFL ruling of this, it would be appreciated.

not sure of a ruling but it would most likely be declined anyway.

Correct. The only thing would have been if there were both a FM and illegal touching/batting called, the penalties would most likely offset and we'd still be at a 3rd down situation.

Only reason I bring this up, alot of Packer "fans" are all up in arms about the facemask non-call, but don't recognize that this illegal touching could have negated any gain from it anyway.

It's amazing what some people can talk themselves into believing.

I guess I'm not really sure what I'm trying to believe??? :confused:

I just thought it appeared that Rodgers kicked the ball while in the air.

I also thought - both in real time and then watching replays - that Rodgers kicked the ball.

What I really don't understand is why he did it. If he hadn't, the ball would almost certainly have hit the ground, and every time I saw it I've got forward pass, not fumble there. His hand was moving forwards in a passing motion when the defender pushed at the ball, diverting its path. If Rodgers lets the ball hit the ground it is (or at least should be) 4th down, and a chance to be brave and go for it, or punt away and hope for a (miraculous) stop by the Packers D. Kicking the ball seemed to have no purpose, and could have had no purpose, particularly as it's not really something he's ever trained to do!

Agreed, why didn't he peer into the future and know that was going to happen?

there I fixed it...

It didn't need fixing. The second sentence made it clear what I was talking about.

What amazes me is that all the fans don't understand the 5 yard facemask rule. They are reading into it thinking that all facemasks are 15 yarders, but that is incorrect. Maybe Mike P will inform the misinformed that the 5 yard variety is now legal.

As others have pointed out, there must be a twisting and pulling on the facemask for a penalty to be called.

Official NFL Rule Book 2009

Rule 12, Section 2, Article 5:
No player shall twist, turn, or pull the facemask of an opponent in any direction.
Penalty: For twisting, turning, or pulling the mask: loss of 15 yards. The player may be disqualified if the action is judged by the official(s) to be of a flagrant nature.

A.R. 12.12 Third-and-10 on A30. Runner A1 runs to the A33, where he is tackled by B1, who incidentally grasps A1's face mask on the tackle, but it is not a twist, turn, or pull.
Ruling: A's ball, fourth-and-seven, on A33. No foul



Also, if the face mask would of been called, it would of been a 15 yard penalty coupled with an automatic first down from the previous spot. Green Bay's ball 1st-and-10 from their 39.

????
 

Jason,
Can you enlighten us on a 5 yd facemask in the NFL??

There is no such thing under NFL Rules. The pertinent rules on face mask were posted above.

I was just stating that it is no longer illegal to have an incidental facemask foul that was once a 5 yard penalty.

so we can have a 5 yarder???
 

or that they did away with the 5 yard variety and only have the 15 yard option left??

There is no longer a foul for incidental grasping of the face mask in NFL or the NCAA. This foul does still exist in the Fed and the penalty is 5 yards. In the NFL and NCAA, there is only a foul for a pull, twist or turn. This foul is 15 yards.

There are some that believe (incorrectly) that ANY facemask grab is now a 15yard foul. That is not true under any code.

That is correct. There is no 5 yard face mask penalty anymore. It's 15 yards or nothing.

Yes that was my understanding as well, but I wasn't exactly sure what Jason was trying to say that is why I asked him for clarification.

Then why were the officials throwing their bags?

In these bang-bang plays like this I believe the officials are supposed to go with fumble and then let replay kick in to see if it was a pass.

Avoiding a knock-on?

Just a little inter-code humor.

no twisting?

Better watch it again!

YouTube - Greenbay lose due to facemask

Bill Carrollo has weighed in:

540 ESPN Milwaukee

Carollo: 'He did get him in the facemask'
BY JASON WILDE

GREEN BAY – As the Green Bay Packers players cleared out their lockers, packed up their belongings and went their separate ways into the offseason Monday morning, they did so wondering what might have been had one or two plays gone their way during Sunday’s 51-45 overtime loss to the Arizona Cardinals in the NFC Wild Card playoffs.

And according to former NFL referee Bill Carollo, the officials got the call on the game-deciding play – Michael Adams’ blitzing sack of Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers, which resulted in a fumble that Karlos Dansby returned 17 yards for the winging touchdown – wrong.

Carollo, who retired after 20 years as an NFL official in 2008 and now works as the Big Ten Conference’s director of officiating, told ESPNMadison’s Steve “The Homer” True Monday that referee Scott Green and his crew missed what should have been a 15-yard facemask or unnecessary roughness penalty on Adams, who caught Rodgers’ facemask with his right hand and pulled on it after forcing Rodgers’ fumble.

“Certainly (Adams) made contact, dislodged the ball, and continued and hit the quarterback. He did get him in the facemask; you can’t hit him above the shoulders with anything,” said Carollo, who watched the game on television. “In this case, probably a personal foul could’ve been called on that play. (Green) didn’t necessarily rule that it was a pass, so it couldn’t be roughing the passer, but he could have an unnecessary roughness on that play for grabbing the facemask.”

This time, with Dansby blitzing through the A-gap behind a tackle-end twist, Rodgers had no one open and held onto the ball. As Rodgers pump-faked and pulled the ball back in, Adams hit the ball with his right hand, knocking it loose, and his follow-through hit Rodgers in the facemask. The ball deflected off of Rodgers’ right foot – something Rodgers said Monday he did not do intentionally – and right to Dansby, who returned it for the touchdown.

The timing of Adams’ grabbing of the facemask is also an issue. Although the ball was loose when Adams’ hand hit Rodgers in the face, the Cardinals had not yet gained possession. So, had Green called the penalty, not only would the touchdown been wiped out, but the Packers would have retained possession.

“If a penalty was called on that play, you’d have to throw the flag, and then determined, when did the foul occur? That makes a big difference in this case because it’s really close,” Carollo explained. “In this case, though, when the facemask was grabbed, the ball was still loose, which means it was still in the Packers’ possession. So they have not lost possession. The foul happened before the ball was recovered in the air. If the foul happened after the fact, and the Arizona player had the ball, then Arizona would keep the ball with the penalty assessed from that spot.

“In this case, I believe the penalty occurred before Arizona recovered the ball in the air, so it would be a previous-spot foul: 15 yards from the previous spot.”

That means the Packers would have had the ball first-and-10 at their own 39-yard line.

The league issued what it called a "rule explanation" Monday, saying a facemask penalty is a judgment call that is not reviewable by instant replay. However, the statement made no clarification of whether the call was missed.

The NFL rulebook states that "no player shall twist, turn, or pull the facemask of an opponent in any direction." If they do, it is a 15-yard personal foul, as the league eliminated its 5-yard incidental facemask penalty before the 2008 season, meaning that minor infractions were not to be called and leaving officials to decide if an incident in which a player grabs an opponent's facemask is worthy of a 15-yard personal foul.

The rulebook states that a play on which a player "incidentally grasps" an opponent's facemask in a manner that "is not a twist, turn or pull" is not a penalty. But as Carollo pointed out, the rules are different for quarterbacks, who aren’t allowed to be hit above the shoulder pads.

There also was a helmet-to-helmet hit on Rodgers two plays before the game-ending play, when defensive end Bertrand Berry came in high on Rodgers but no call was made – other than the holding call on left guard Daryn Colledge.

“It normally is (up to the referee) on that play,” said Carollo, an NFL official from 1989 through 2008 and a crew chief from 1996 through 2008. “It’s difficult to look at two different situations at the same time, whether it was the last play or the play (two) before. Once you’re focused in and you see a hold, you want to throw the flag, make sure you’ve got the right number, make sure there’s advantage or disadvantage given … the referee made the decision to call holding, but at the same time, he didn’t see the defender coming in and the quarterback got hit.”

But it was the fumble and facemask-that-wasn’t that were the hot topic for fans and commentators Monday, as ESPN devoted time to the play on NFL Live, Around the Horn and Jim Rome Is Burning.

“You don’t want to be talking about the game the next day, based on a couple calls you make – especially down the stretch, or (if) you’ve got overtime or a close game like this,” said Carollo, whose job with the Big Ten requires him to break down the film of the conference’s officials and grade their performances. “There were a lot of great plays in the game, there were some terrific calls in the game by the officials also. But that’s what you get paid for. The reality is, there is some controversy that goes with that last play of the game.

“Our goal (as officials) is to get the calls right. We learned early on in the NFL, going back to the ‘80s when I started, that these games are too big (to get it wrong). We make mistakes. We might make 3.8 to 4 mistakes a game on a Sunday and maybe 5 mistakes in college on a Saturday. Because those mistakes happen and the games are so important, officials, we’re not hoping to make a mistake. But they’re going to happen; we’re human, and errors are going to occur. We want to get it right.”

Perhaps the most interesting aspect of the final play was what might have happened had the ball not caromed off Rodgers’ foot and to Dansby. Had the ball hit the ground instead, Carollo said Green’s crew might have called the play an incomplete pass – or if a fumble was the initial ruling, it might have been overturned by instant replay. In overtime, all replay reviews are initiated by the replay booth.

“On that type of play, and I worked that position, your No. 1 concern is, is it a pass or a fumble? You’re locked into the quarterback, so you’re watching him, and protecting him, that should be your first overall responsibility,” Carollo said. “It’s probably the toughest call for a head referee to make, is it a pass or a fumble? It’s very close – was the arm going forward, or did it stop, and did the passing motion stop, or was it a fumble. In this case, they ruled fumble on the play and the defensive player caught it in the air, so it didn’t matter if it was a fumble or a pass because he got it cleanly in the air. Had it hit the ground, it would have been a big issue.”

That’s because The Tuck Rule – famously at the center of a controversy in a 2001 AFC Divisional playoff game between the New England Patriots and Oakland Raiders and involving now-Packers cornerback Charles Woodson – would have been in effect. And Woodson, who forced what referee Walt Coleman initially ruled to be a Tom Brady fumble only to see it overturned by replay, would have been on the team that benefitted from the call, Carollo said.

“A pass is still a pass until by rule, it’s defined as not a pass,” Carollo said. “And on this play, when (Rodgers) starts his motion going forward and he tries to stop it and gets hit at the same time, he has to continue and stop that passing motion himself and bring it all the way back to his body. Then the play ends as a pass play and now he becomes a runner and if he gets hit, now it’s a fumble.

“Even though it kind of looked like a fumble and the quarterback losing the ball, more than likely, from my experience, replay would have stepped in after the touchdown was ruled, they would have reviewed the play and they would have made that final determination (of), was that a pass or a fumble? But it had a lot of earmarks of a pass – even though most people think it’s a fumble. … The whole idea is, we don’t want any cheap fumbles, so if it’s 50/50, really tight, close, we’d rather have an incomplete pass than a fumble.”

Carollo added that had the play gone to the replay booth, the replay official, by rule, could not have pointed out the facemask penalty during his review.

Speaking of Woodson, Carollo also said Green’s crew missed what should have been an offensive pass interference penalty on Larry Fitzgerald on Fitzgerald’s 33-yard touchdown catch-and-run, when he knocked Woodson down before catching Kurt Warner’s pass.

“You can have a collision if they’re both looking for the ball. You can have people run into each other and have nothing if they’re both looking for the ball,” Carollo said. “But I think Fitzgerald had his back to the quarterback before he made his cut, and (even if) he didn’t see Woodson, the responsibility is on the offense to know where he’s going. He knows his route.

“At the same time, the defense can’t cut him off, but it looked like Fitzgerald ran through him and knocked him down, and of course caught the pass. That’s, again, a judgment call not covered by replay. They didn’t call anything, but normally something like that, something is called (on the offensive player) unless it’s incidental tripping.”

No twisting. In fact, this might be the definition of "incidental".

he has a 2 fingers hooked (grasping) and he pulls Rodgers helmet down and to the right, down and to the right. If you are into conspiracy theories(or Seinfeld) you will get that. :)

The rule says twist turn or pull. You are saying that the QB heard wasn't turned?


The NFL rulebook states that "no player shall twist, turn, or pull the facemask of an opponent in any direction." If they do, it is a 15-yard personal foul, as the league eliminated its 5-yard incidental facemask penalty before the 2008 season, meaning that minor infractions were not to be called and leaving officials to decide if an incident in which a player grabs an opponent's facemask is worthy of a 15-yard personal foul.


The NFL official with 20 years experience says you are wrong.

This official with 27 years experience says go troll the other board.

Oh, I see, anyone that has a difference of opinion is a TROLL! Gotcha!

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you're a Packer fan bigjohn. And you're looking for confirmation that you and your buddies "got screwed."

This is an officiating board. We gather the facts, evaluate them, then give our opinions/evaluations of the situation. We are here to learn from eachother and get better as officials. Most importantly we leave emotion out of it. You should too or go find a Packer Backer board to whine on.

Even if they missed a FM call, so what? Your boys were about to punt away to a red-hot Cardinal offense.

When the NFL says the call was missed, I'll buy it; but not when a retired official says it.

I am a packers fan and well aware that A Rodgers should have hit Jennings for the game winning TD and we all know it. It is also very clear that the R missed the call that would have given the Packers another chance to win the game. With some of the missed calls earlier it sure makes one wonder why it kept happening. The R missed at least 3 major PFs on the Packer QB but called a holding foul instead. More than one OPI missed as well.

So even though the Packers could have won and didn't the officials are still accountable for the poorly called game. One of the greatest games ever BTW.

Anyone ??

Nope... just you.

Carl Gerbschmidt, is that you?

It was a conspiracy, you're right. Are you even an official? Why do you waste your (and everyone else's) time on this board?

One thing i've learned, never come to an officials website to complain or discuss an official missing a call. A vast majority of officials will never admit an official missed a call. This is obvious, there was a facemask, and regardless in the NFL hands to the face/head of a QB is an automatic roughing penalty. So there is a penalty there.

But the explaination I've heard is once there is a fumble the officials attention goes to the ball and watching to see what happens to it. So it is very logical and understandable that he would not see the penalty.

Nope. Try an assistant coach.

Watch the video, you can see his eyes, he barely looks at the ball on the ground and goes right back to the QB hit as he is bagging the possible fumble. He did everything right but call the FM. His judgment was that it wasn't enough to call. He made a poor judgment in my opinion.

You've been on this board for three years and you try to make this claim? I don't know of any official on this board who would respond as you suggest. We'll admit officials miss calls.

But when you point to a specific play, you can expect differing opinions. Don't mistake that for beligerence.

You mean FORMER NFL official. There may be a reason he may be former. I'd rather trust a CURRENT NFL official. Plus, don't believe everything you read. Officials have been misquoted in the past and chances are Carollo didn't say any of that.

This is a bit disingenuous don't you think? I dare say if the current Big 10 supervisor/former NFL official came to your clinic or evaluated a game you worked, you'd be tickled pink.

Maybe the WH blew it, maybe he didn't. We all get told every Friday and/or Saturday night we missed a call and we stand by our decision. Later, we get a chance to run through it mentally, or better yet, see video, and come to a different conclusion.

bigjohn has his tangents but I don't think he's off the mark here. The possible helmet to helmet on Rogers, the replay angle I saw it appeared the R was focused on the hold. The facemask sure looks like it was pulled to me.
I'm neither a Packer nor Cardinal fan. My team's QB should have been benched by week 2.

Mike P will be answering it all in about 20 minutes

I will put it this way. He is not a current NFL evaluator. Which means he might not be up on the current or every changing interpretation in the NFL? People that have been away are not always privy to those changes or the current philosophies. The NFL has changed many times over in the last several years. And unless he is aware of those changes his opinion is not any more relevant than the people that work in the NFL currently.

And Big John has a history of taking something he does not understand and running with it. Officials do make mistakes, but it does not appear they did here based on what I have seen all year being called and not called. I have seen many plays like this not called at all and I can live with it. Packer fans just are looking for an excuse to say they did not win while they gave up 45 points and the Cardinals let them back in the game to even have a chance to win. Someone has to be the blame for that and officials are easy scapegoats.

Peace

Victoria Advocate | Packers' McCarthy not blaming loss to Cardinals on officiating

NFL director of officiating Mike Pereira said in his weekly review on NFL Network that he supported referee Scott Green's call because there was no blatant twisting of the facemask. He said this kind of grab clearly falls under the incidental facemask penalty that was eliminated this season.

"Well he's got a finger, he's got a finger hooked on the mask," Pereira said. "It's a tough play, but it really is one of those where you don't get the big look that you got on the other facemasks of the clear and obvious pull, or the clear and obvious twist."

Pereira also said he consulted with Green and the replay officials and they did not think the "tuck rule" would have been invoked if the ball had hit the ground before Dansby caught it in mid-air. He said the call on the field of a fumble would have stood.

Good enough for me. ;)

Peace

Yeah, well I get the feeling had they called a facemask he would have been supported as well.

Maybe and maybe not but as I stated before, there were similar situations like this it was not called. And you can disagree all you like, but that is a fact. And even the announcers have made note of this which normally they all do a terrible job explaining rules that have some nuance.

Peace

Too many fans are relying on the officials to bail them out. The fact is this game rested on the shoulders of Rogers. He is the one that fumbled the ball, not the referee. Had he not fumbled the ball, the outcome could have been different. The grasping of the facemask was not the reason the Packers lost. You can go back on look at some of the past Official Review segents where there was a flag thrown for this very same type of grasping of the facemask. As I recall, Mike P. disagreed with the flag on those. The reason for the rule is if the players neck is twisted, pullled, or turned in a way that he could possibly be injured. Rogers was not put in a position to where is safety was at risk. A general question here: When was the last time a player was ever injured as the result of even a major facemask foul?

No! I'm completely SHOCKED to see this coming from Packer fans.

Posting this type of crap is what people talk about when they call you a troll.

Yep, the field judge should have detected the facemask.

Move along, FanBoy

Pereira > Carollo > Fetchiet > Rule or mechanics book.

In the Midwest, if you are able to achieve such a status, you listen to the three above in that order.

You guys take yourselves WAY too seriously!!!!!!!!

Yup, you don't troll at all John.

Pot, meet Kettle. You two should get along famously.

OK, now it is illegal!! Wonder how they will rule on the one that was just called when Warner got hit in the head?