PSK Revisited
 

Having a discussion with some other officials and we can't agree on when PSK starts. Some are saying it starts on the snap and others are saying PSK doesn't apply until the ball is kicked (meaning any live ball fouls that occur prior to the ball being kicked are enforced as loose ball fouls enforced from the previous spot). Can someone clarify this once and for all?

One of the 5 requirements for a foul to be considered PSK, in NF:2-16-2 is that, "the foul occurs: (2) During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the expanded NZ".

The phrase "scrimmage kick play" is telling. If the Fed's intention was to only have PSK apply during a scrimmage kick (which is well defined in Rule 2) then they would have said so. Their inclusion of the word play has significance. My understanding and how I was taught is that the PSK window starts at the snap.

Redding agrees by the way.

But there is no definition of "scrimmage kick play" in the NFHS rule book like there is in the NCAA rule book (where I believe this wording game from). That's where the confusion comes from. A scrimmage kick doesn't begin until the ball is kicked. I trust Redding but the rule book is not as absolute.

The concern seems to be if the foul happens before the kick actually happens, PSK will not apply. That's not true. I only have my 2008 books with me here, but if you look at 10.4.3 g in the case book, you'll find this situation addressed.
The possibility for PSK enforcement starts at the snap after which 5 requirements have to be met. The only "timing" requirement is before the kick ends. I believe when the NFHS first came out with the PSK enforcement, there was "timing" requirement of the foul must occur during the kick. But that was changed, again I believe, in the second year.

That is just dopey and lacks of common sense. :rolleyes:

Forgive me if I'm missing something here, but are you suggesting that PSK enforcement would apply regardless of whether there is actually a kick that takes place?

It seems reasonably clear that should the ball not be legally kicked, any penalty enforcement for fouls committed during the down would be established by the basic spot as determined by the action that occurs during the down (NF: 10-4-1)

No, of course not. PSK enforcement would only apply if all of the elements of PSK enforcement in Rule 2 were met. What I am saying is that the time element of PSK begins (when the PSK window opens) at the snap prior to a scrimmage kick.

Does this answer when the PSK window opens?

Nope. It just shows how to write an unended sentence with only one comma and no period, while not answering the question.

Typical! :p

Nice comment dude. How many varsity games have you worked? With an attitude like that I doubt you'll work too many more.

Lay off the Texan. I hear he's got a 5 gallon hat and a 10 gallon head. :p

A legend in his own mind. Maybe squeezed a little tight?

Definitions!

It's about quality not quantity... ;)

Whatever jaydude I think you've been elected head bingo caller.

b-10

Perhaps you could share your superior knowledge, with us less attuned, and explain just what a "PSK window" is, much less than when it "opens", and what it matters?

I'm still not sure what "a window" has to do with the price of bacon, but NF:2-16-h advises, "PSK- a foul by R (other than illegal substitution or participation) when the foul occurs:
1. During scrimmage kick plays, other than a successful try or field goal.
2. During a scrimmage kick play in which the the ball crosses the the expanded NZ.
3. Beyond the expanded NZ.
4. Before the end of a kick.
5. And K will not be next to put the ball in play.

Which would suggest a PSK foul can happen at any time between the snap, (see NF: 2-1-2 "a ball becomes live when the ball has been legally snapped or free kicked and a down is in progress. NF:2-7-1 defines a "down".) and the end of a kick, provided all the prerequisites of PSK are satisfied, which doesn't require much of any application of common sense to supplement the rule.

(Common sense: good judgment, sound practical judgment derived from experience rather than study. - Encarta dictionary)

I knew you could read and understand the rules. Be honest - you were just playing with us with that other topic, right? I mean, admit it, nobody can be THAT dense.

Oh, before I forget.

Did somebody mention 'bacon'? :D

I think you still might be missing the point, "Common sense= good judgment, sound practical judgment derived from experience rather than study", alone.

Let me try a different suggestion, "When an external interpretation clearly conflicts with common sense and logic, it's far better to apply acquired experience to reason the specific objective, rather than blindly follow what cannot be rationally explained, or understood."

Like density, it's largely an individual choice dependent on your own ability to differentiate between conclusions that really don't make any sense and those reasoned to logically fit the circumstances. Of course you have to be ready to stand by your decision, but it helps if you can explain your reasoning.

That would be the "PSK window". It is not a rulebook term, but only phrase to describe the "interval of time during which an activity [the foul] can or must take place."

It is simply a method of conceptualizing one component of the somewhat complex post scrimmage kick enforcement.

Alfie, I'll stick with the rules as written, as well as the general consensus on the subject. You, however, are free to employ whatever you need to justify your stance.

Be glad to. Scroll up to post number 17 which answered the question.

When does the second PSK window open if there is more than one scrimmage kick during a down?

I was doing just fine until THIS post. Now i've drooled on my keyboard. :p

How does this second legal scrimmage kick occurr?

Can I borrow a comma from this thread?

Personally I liked the previous definition of the PSK window before they tried making it easier on us. But it's still clear -- the window opens with the snap and closes at the end of the kick as long as the requirements of PSK are met.

There is no limit to the number of scrimmage kicks that may be made prior to a change of possession during the down.

Ex 1. 4/10 from the K-20. K1 kicks the ball and it lands at the K-25 and bounces backwards to the K-18 where K1 quickly picks it up and kicks it again.

Ex 2. 4/10 from the K-20. K1 muffs the snap and throws a forward pass to K2 at the K-25 and R1 interferes with K2. K2 catches the pass, tries to circle back. K2 fumbles the ball at the K-22 and K3 picks the ball up at the K-18 and then punts the ball from there.

When did the PSK window open and close for each play?

I think I read this play somewhere, but I don't recall where.

You sure? Fed probably meant to copy NCAA, which classifies downs according to a priority ranking of certain things happening during the down, so they probably mean "scrimmage kick play" as a down during which a scrimmage kick occurred, but it is odd that they used the word "play", which invites other interpretations.

I finally, preparing to move stuff back into the room with the new carpet, dug out my collection of research on football rules, and Fed used to be such a model of clarity, but they've gone way downhill. I doubt sloppiness such as this would've occurred 30 yrs. ago in Fed; in NFL or CFL, sure, and probably about as easily in what was then CAFA; in NCAA, very unlikely, but still more likely than Fed at that time.

We can gather that by using the word "play" they meant something other than just the interval of the scrimmage kick itself, but by not using the word "down" they suggest something other than that too. Maybe they were meaning to cover certain intervals in the unlikely event of those multiple kicks that some posters have brought up, and just forgot to add the definition.

PSK starts at the KICK not the SNAP
 

Otherwise a roughing the kicker penalty would classify as a PSK.

Note the commentary from NFHS casebook in 2003 when the rule was established:


"This change does not create an exception to the penalty code, but rather, a new enforcement spot. In addition, the rule change does not change the concept that the receiving team has to get the ball with "clean hands," but rather, that they have to have clean hands until the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone."

Also, consider the following from an Officiating.com article by Ed Hickland

"Making it simple

Post-scrimmage kick should not be a hard rule to understand. The rules writers are constrained by having to place somewhat common sense situations into appropriate verbiage; sometimes they end up with words and phrases that don�t convey the proper meaning. That is why we have interpreters.

The intent of the rule is to mitigate the penalty on the receiving team for a foul they committed while the ball following a scrimmage kick is in the possession of the kicking team.

Therefore, think in terms of the three possible situations where R could foul:

� Inside or behind the expanded neutral zone.

� Beyond the expanded neutral zone while the ball is in team possession of K.

� After his team has gained possession.

Then apply post-scrimmage kick rules:

� Inside or behind the expanded neutral zone: non-scrimmage kick rules.

� Beyond the expanded neutral zone while the ball is in team possession of K: post-scrimmage kick.

� After his team has gained possession: post-possession.

Non-scrimmage kick rules are treated as though the kick has not occurred. That could be roughing the kicker. R should not be entitled to gain possession of the ball.

On a post-scrimmage kick the ball is either in the air or has hit the ground and is bouncing around. R is entitled to the ball, but the foul must be penalized. Apply post-scrimmage kick rules. That type of foul is most common when the ball has hit the ground and is bounding around. A zealous R player trying to keep a K player from the ball blocks in the back or clips the player.

Once R has gained player and team possession or the ball is dead, R is definitely entitled to the ball. Any foul is post-possession and will be penalized as a running play. An example would be the receiver has the ball and is moving up field. A teammate blocking holds a K player.

Don�t be confused by the new rules on post-scrimmage kicks: Identifying the occurrence is simple, and so is the enforcement."



Read more: Officiating.com : Football : Post-Scrimmage Kick Again! — Part II — What about that play?



Procivil

No it wouldn't, due to another requirement of the PSK rule that the foul must occur beyond the expanded neutral zone.

The rule did initially state that the foul was at the snap but it has been since changed.

Psk
 

You are correct, Welpe; thanks for the clarification. I still believe PSK starts at the kick instead of the snap. PSK is all about not over-penalizing R/B to the extent that they lose possession. Simply stated: In order to be awarded possession, the receiving team must have "clean hands" to the point in which the ball crosses the neutral zone.