Right Call or Wrong Call
 

Watch this video - did they get it right?

YouTube - John Glenn Homecoming 2009

Curious, is this John Glenn from Norwalk, CA?

Right call. I don't think the knee was on the ground again when possession was gained.

Just another case of too much TV influence,and not understanding the rules.

I agree, I think he was coming up when he gained control of the ball by picking it up. Unfortunate, but I think the refs made the right call.

It looked to me that he was down at the time he gained possession. Beyond that, how long do you wait to kill it if no one is continuing the play?

This game I think was in Michigan.

I agree, now. My mom graduated from a similarly named HS in Norwalk, CA, that's why I asked.

You're kidding, right? Which provision under 4-2-2 [a-k] would you use to kill a live ball in player possession?

I guess you could kill it there were enough people on the field that had a legitimate fear for the safety of the players.

That is Westland John Glenn in suburban Detroit. John Glenn Rockets and Plymouth Wildcats are in the same conference (Kensington Lakes? or something like that).

That field still looks very familiar, the first friday night Varsity football game I ever officiated was at that field (Fall of 1992). I was over there with three other British football officials on vacation staying with local officials. We worked Thursday night JV games and some Monday afternoon small college freshman games.

At the last minute, someone dropped out of a crew at John Glenn. Rather than shuffle folks around from other crews and since we Brits were all registered with MHSAA, the assigner decided to put one of us on the game and he had us draw straws for the slot.

I have the cheque from that game framed on my office wall - meant more to me to keep it as a momento than have the $35.

As for the actual play, I can't really see from this YouTube footage if the knee is down or not.

Saw this earlier and figured it would make it here at some point. I initially thought his knee was down with the ball, but looked some more and I think he was on the way up and then took possession.

Looks like a great call....with the exception of 35 or so people on the field as the team was about to score.

On another forum, someone noted that if penalized, the excess celebration/people on the field is a succeeding spot enforcement, thus allowing the TD to stand.

I dunno if this is true or not.

True.

Had they killed the play with the holder standing there with the ball, it would have been an IW. They'd be kicking again, which would have created a bigger stink.

No, they got it right.

It's impossible to tell if the knee is down. I think it goes down after the kid catches the blocked kick (as he's standing), but who knows?

What's clear from the video is that at least one (and maybe more) of the officials were not ready to work the play all the way through. Look at the LJ. And I hate not having the one wing underneath -- especially when the L doesn't even move. I don't think he was ready for this, either, as I would've expected him to at least take a step towards the goal line.

Some of the comments on YouTube claim a whistle blew. I don't hear a whistle.

I think was was the right call. Very strange play, but heads up by the coach to yell at his kid to run. I think it could have gone either way, but I really do think that they made the right call.:)

Question for you guys?

Since the kick never crossed the LOS, could Team A have kicked it again?

If so, does it matter that the holder's knee is on the ground?

Thoughts? (Also is Fed different from NCAA on this matter?)

NFHS: Yes. In fact, it does not matter whether or not the ball crosses the line of scrimmage or (expanded) neutral zone. If the player is in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession, he may make a legal kick. (6-2-1)

NCAA: Yes. However, it does matter that the kick did not cross the netural zone, as K cannot advance a scrimmage kick that does, regardless of where they recover it. (6-3-6-a)

NFHS: Yes, it does matter. The holder is exempt from 4-2-2a when he catches or recovers the snap with a knee on the ground. After the kick, this exemption no longer applies, because he caught or recovered a kick, not the snap. (4-2-2a, Exception 1)

He may still hold the ball for a second legal place kick, but he may not touch the ground with any part of his person other than his hand or foot.

NCAA: As I read 4-1-3-b, the kicker may put his knee back down as long as a teammate is in position to kick the ball.

I'm no NCAA rules expert, so someone correct me if I'm wrong there.

I looked up NCAA Rule 4-1-3-b,

Ball Declared Dead
ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle
or declare it dead:
b. When any part of the ball carrier’s body, except his hand or foot, touches
the ground or when the ball carrier is tackled or otherwise falls and loses
possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his
body, except his hand or foot [Exception: The ball remains alive when
an offensive player has simulated a kick or is in position to kick the ball
held for a place kick by a teammate. The ball may be kicked, passed or
advanced by rule] (A.R. 4-1-3-I).


I would think if the play in question occurred in a NCAA game, the question of the holder's knee being on the ground would not result in the ball being declared dead...but I could be wrong.

So, if the holder's knee is on the ground when he gains control - is the ball dead at this point?

I asked on another board, is it a Michigan mechanic to have only the BJ under for scrimmage kick scoring attempts?

The topic was brought up at a local meeting here and the call from Columbus said always two officials on any kick for score, 3pt or PAT.

It looked to me that the crew didn't know what to do. They were content to have the game end after the blocked FG. This a perfect example of why our crew says to each other before any FG attempt, "The ball is live until it crosses the goal line."

When he gains control of a blocked kick, yes.

Just curious, is there a supporting rule for this response?

If the ball did not cross the LOS and the ball can still be kicked, why is the ball dead "when (the holder) gains control of a blocked kick" while his knee is on the ground?

Because the exception to NFHS rule 4-2-2 for the holder only applies to his receiving a snap.

Gotcha! Thanks!

Does anyone see any such restrictions in NCAA rules?

the only restriction in NCAA seems to be there still must be someone in position to kick the ball while the holder is in control with knee on ground. Pretty slim chance of that after a blocked kick.

Actually I'd say a pretty good chance of the kicker's still being in position to kick the ball. Pretty slim chance of its working, though.