Penalty enforcement FED
 

First and 10

RB runs for three yards, right at the end of the run there is a 5 yard facemask penalty.

Question: After the penalty is enforced, is it 1st down and 2 or is it 2nd down and 2? Or neither? Why?

Thanks guys. Still trying to completely grasp penalty enforcement...it's not as easy as I once thought it was.

The down is replayed whenever a penalty is accepted. (except for LOD fouls)

As with all penalties there is a choice, by the offended team. When you say, "at the end of the run" that could mean either a live ball foul, or a dead ball foul.

For a live ball Face mask, since the foul happened during the play, the impact of the penalty is considered part of the play. The live ball foul is administered from the end of the run, so A gained 3 yards on his own, and if A accepts the penalty they would get an additional 5 yards PLUS the down is repeated. Since it was 1st down, we repeat 1st down (have advanced 3 yards + the 5 yards of the penalty) and there is only 2 yards to go to the original Line to gain.

For a dead ball foul, since the foul happened after the play was over, the yardage situation is the same ( 3 yards gained + 5 additional yards for the penalty, but because the foul occurred AFTER the play was over, the penalty does not include repeating the down, so it's 2nd down and 2 yards to go to reach the original line to gain. The enforcement spot is the subsequent spot, the spot where the run ended, which in this case is also where the play ended and where the ball would otherwise next be put in play.

1st and 2.

After a liveball penalty is enforced the down will be the same as the down in which the penalty occured unless:

1. After penalty enforcement team A is in possession beyond the line-to-gain, then 1st down.
2. The penalty against team B includes an automatic 1st down, then 1st down.
3. The penalty against team A includes the loss of (the right to replay the) down, the down is next.
4. After enforcement of a liveball penalty on 4th down which includes the loss of down leaves team A behind the line to gain then B's ball 1st down.

Automatic 1st Down:
Pass Interference
Roughing: Snapper, Holder, Kicker, Passer

Loss of Down:
Illegal Forward Pass
Intentional Grounding
Pass Interference
Illegal Touching

Why couldn't it be?

IMO, NO. after play is dead and someone touches a facemask we are going to have nothing unless it becomes somehow a dead ball personal foul for things getting a bit more out of hand than someone touching a facemask, that would normally be enforced as a 5 yd live ball foul. I can see what would normally be a 15 yd facemask penalty enforced as a dead ball PF if happened after the play is ended.

Agree. 5-yd facemask is live-ball only, since the protection it affords exists only during a down.

Although the original question wasn't specifically about a facemask foul, and in practice a 5 yard facemask foul would most normally apply to a live ball situation, there is absolutely nothing that restricts such a foul to live ball only.

I agree with whitehat. There really shouldn't be anything "incidental" about grasping an opponent's face mask after the down.

Are you sure?

Since "a play" refers to either a loose-ball play or a running play, I think it follows that the 5-yard, "incidental" face mask foul can be called only during a live ball.

I suppose "in theory", you could have a dead-ball 5-yard facemask penalty. However, "in practice", I don't think I'd ever call a 5-yard facemask as a dead-ball foul. It's hard to say that someone 'incidentally' grabbed an opponent's facemask when the ball is dead, so if it did happen I'd probably call either a PF or USC, depending on the context.

USC doesn't fit the bill since these are non-contact fouls.

Why on earth would you call a dead ball 5 yard facemask? If the ball is dead and an A player pushes a B player in the back are you going to call a block in the back? No, you should have nothing or a personal foul.

If a player is holding another players jersey after the ball is dead you wouldn't call dead ball holding. If the holding was severe enough and the player was tackled you would again have nothing or a dead ball PF.

Dead ball officiating is about safety. If something happens that is a danger to a player, call it a personal foul, otherwise let it go.

well summarized Norcal!

5 yard facemask
 

How often do you call this? I ask, because many people I have talked to believe that it is either a 15 or nothing. I know the 5 is in the rule book, but I am inclined to lean towards their thinking in that in practice it is either a facemask or it is not. After all it is a rule intended to ensure the safety of players.

Thoughts!

I think the 5 yarder was added years ago to prevent the 15 yarders. If it's a facemask then call it, whether it's 5 or 15 and if you're in doubt, it's 15, I believe anyway. This ain't the NFL, it's HS and our number one concern is player safety.

The OP wasn't specifically about a face mask foul?!! That's exactly what it was about. A 5 yard face mask penalty enforcement. Man, you need to work on your reading and comprehension!

I wonder if the confusion is because the NCAA and NFL have eliminated the 5 yard foul.

Does the hand brush the face mask? No foul.
Does the hand grasp the face mask, but not pull or twist it in any way? 5 yards.
Does the hand grasp the face mask, and pull or twist it? Do you see the helmet move in any direction in any manner as a result of the face mask? 15 yards.

I think my games have had as many 5 yard fouls as 15 this year. I mostly do youth games, though. They are pretty good about immediately letting go.

So it would be 1st and 2 yards to go? Thanks fellas...other good comments on here as well. Thanks!!

Seems to me Jaybird, the purpose of the question was about down and distance and the penalty being a facemask was totally incidental. What you need to do is get that really stupid chip off your shoulder, it keeps forcing you to make yourself appear as a petty bead counter. The point of my original comment, which obviously escaped your superior powers of observation, was simply that although dead ball face mask penalties are usually of the 15 yard variety, there is NOTHING (rule wise) that precludes calling a 5 yarder.

Should read: "Every time I see it happen."

Or what, you're flagging it in my games? :D

penalty enforcement question
 

Can someone cite a reference for this statement?

That's what happens when you take common sense out of the equation and try to apply only the letter of the rule.

In practice, 5 yard facemask fouls are extremely rare.

Any movement of the head/helmet should simply be a personal foul. I wouldn't be opposed to removing the 5 yard mask from the NFHS code and simply ignoring the grab and release without a head turn/tackle by the mask.

For what it's worth, the SPECIFIC purpose for adding the 5 yard facemask foul was that NFHS concluded that "incidental" type interactions with a face mask were being routinely ignored because the severity of the penalty was not merited by the type of incidental contact.

Because NFHS wants to discourage any and all contact with the face mask, the 5 yard penalty was added to encourage penalizing less severe grasping of the mask. The "Penalty" description for NF: 9-4-3h differentiates between the two as, "incidental grasping-5 yards" and "grasping AND twisting, turning or pulling the face mask of helmet opening-15 yards".

And they could've simply eliminated the grasping as a foul. Now we have coaches screaming every time a hand touches the mask -- and that's NOT a foul.

If memory serves, the same coaches did the same amount of screaming before the 5 yard penalty was added. If nothing else they've been consistent, a prime example that consistency is not always a good thing.

Yes there is. Common sense tells you that after a play is over or during any dead ball situation you wouldn't have "incidental" fouls. It would have to rise to the level of a personal foul or you have nothing.

NCAA thought too many ticky-tack personal fouls were being called. A player who had a hand around a face mask then had no incentive to let go, resulting in greater danger. So the 5 yard non-PF penalty was added. Fed and NFL eventually followed suit.

This stuff goes in cycles. At the beginning of the 20th Century, a roughing the kicker foul was put in. Then after a number of years, running into the kicker was added. Eventually the latter was taken out. Then it was put back in. I've forgotten its current status in NCAA -- are there still a 5 and 15yarder for that, or did they eliminate the non-PF foul again?

NCAA still has running into the kicker/roughing the kicker. It's been that way for as long as I can remember.

The problm with the 5 yard face mask is that too many officials call it when the 15 yarder should be called. Saw a bowl game a couple of years ago where the runner almost got his head tore off. HL called a 5 yarder. I'm glad they got rid of it. Hopefully, the NFHS will too.

Exactly my point. If the grab of the mask moves the head *at all*, it's 15. I'd be thrilled to go back to only having a 15 with the direction to ignore a simple grasp and release of the mask.

I guess what I really want to know is...if you have a two yard gain on first down and then tack on a five yard face-mask penalty, why is it still first down? If the offense gets credit for the two yard gain, shouldn't it be second down? I've been told you have to "replay the down", but you're not replaying the down if they've gotten the credit for the two yards. Several people have told me this is true, but I have yet to get a rule / reference for it.

5-2-2. Replay the down.

That's what I was looking for....thanks.

http://users.bestweb.net/~robgood/football/downzero.txt
 

This has been true for a loooong time (and you know how long my time perspective is), so I feel confident in citing Fed 5-2-2 no matter how old the rule book. They inherited that from NCAA, which got it from pre-NCAA days. The only question on enforcement philosophy of any penalties against the defense since the series of downs was invented has been whether the down should remain the same number or a new series be granted. The logic is that if the defense stops the offense's advance by illegal means, the offense would still have been advancing the ball during that down otherwise, so they should get that distance, plus whatever the penalty's distance is, and keep the down -- unless you want to give them a new series, which the rules makers from time to time decide certain penalties should incur. The logic for penalties on the offense is basically the same -- that despite their own illegal play, they were still advancing the ball at or in association with the spot indicated.

The anomalies in the logic are fouls following change of possession or achievement of the line-to-gain during a down. Because it was decided a long time ago that the new series was conceptually awarded only after the ball became dead, rather than instantly during the down, there is no "down 0", so that keeping the down the same as it would have been actually rips an opportunity off of the offense. See link for discussion.