Question for you
 

Situation: Down by 5, home team has 4th and 8. RFP is blown at 34 seconds left on clock (yes, I was watching the clock carefully). Home breaks huddle and QB tells White HAt "I am taking a knee". White Hat and U then proceed to tell our defenders "He's taking a knee. Do not hit him." QB snaps ball at 10 seconds on clock, fakes taking a knee, and runs back down the field until the clock hits O and then falls down. Officials do nothing and allow the game to end.

Is this correct? Once they told our defenders they could not hit the QB, shouldn't they have killed the play as soon as he faked taking the knee? Is this a possible USC also?

So coach, your kids just watched the QB run around for 10 seconds because the R said don't hit him? Poorly coached kids. IMO.

Is it correct officiating procedure? No, but that does not excuse a coaching error. This is a case where preventative officiating went too far.

As a R when the offense says they are taking a knee I move in a little tighter and keep my whistle at the ready so I can quickly alert the defenders that the QB has downed the ball. But I don't say anything to anyone about it, I signal to my U and my wings (a very subtle tapping of my hand to my knee) but that is it. But I always tell the crew in pregame be ready for anything, because a fumbled snap or a weasel play might just catch you off guard.

The other day had a player get to the punter before he punted the ball. he was well coached to 'not hit the punter' so he stood there and watched the punter kick it. Oops.

no matter who says what, players have to know when the ball is live and when it is dead.

They simply shouldn't have told the defense he was taking a knee. They could have said something like, "If he takes a knee, don't hit him. Everyone protect yourselves. No cheap shots."

I probably would have killed it when he faked the knee, but no, there's nothing that says they "should" do this.

Knock it off, Rev. rockyroad is an excellent basketball official and is just asking a question about the situation. His kids were placed at a disadvantage by the officials who failed to do their job properly. Don't try to blame it on coaching. That's lame.

I never tell the defense anything. If they clobber someone they might draw a flag but I never say a word anymore. If he starts walking backwards before kneeling down I blow it as his forward progress is stopped but that's about it.

Our kids are coached well and play their butts off every week. Did they just stand there - no. Did they hesitate a second which gave the QB a chance to get away from them - yes. And they hesitated because - at every level of every sport - players are told to listen to the officials. When those two said "Do not hit him" they did what they were told to do - until they realized what was going on.

I asked a question that I did not know the answer to...common sense says that if the officials say something like that to the players, they should not then allow the QB to run around like that, but should have - at the least - killed the play as soon as he did not take the knee.

But thanks for taking that little shot at me, Mr. ReffingRev...it does your screen name proud.

Come on Tony, this is not the NF website.
 

First of all Rockyroad might be a good official, but he came asking the question as a coach. His basketball officiating background has nothing to do with this question and I respect Rocky a lot as an official. Rocky should know that just as much as anyone he can be criticized if their positions they come here as an official or a coach.

Secondly, what Rev suggested is a very common practice. You might not like it, but we tell let it be known when there is a team taking their knee. We simply tell everyone to protect themselves we just use it as preventative officiating because one team is clearly trying to end the game.

Peace

But, Jeff, that's not what they did. They didn't tell the players to protect themselves...they specifically said - Do not hit him...that's different, and it caused the defenders to hesitate. So if the officials give bad information, is there no way to rectify the situation when the kid then fakes the knee and takes off running???

That's my question...and in no way am I saying "they cost us the game" or any crap like that. You know that I would never do that - we score more than two TD's out of 7 possessions and we win the stupid game.

Then you need to teach them what to do during that part of the game (right or wrong). If the ball is live, they can hit people with the ball. And if the runner is running around, then he is fair game. Now if they would have penalized your players for hitting or tackling the runner, then you have a real beef. That being said I would have killed the play when the runner faked the kneeling. I do not see my crew allowing this to happen the way it did in your game. I do not understand why all of a sudden players are listening to officials in this situation when it comes to other things they think they know everything when you try to say something to them in other parts of the game?

Peace

I don't know...maybe it's because of my background in officiating, but our kids know that if the official takes the time to tell them something, they had better listen and do/not do whatever it is that was said to them.

I've often wondered why a QB doesn't take a knee from the shotgun position. The team can place two players back with him for protection, and to help if there is a fumble. If the QB is that far back, there is virtually no chance of a B player hitting him. Just wondering.

And it is my experience in football officiating that this almost never happens and players all the time think what they see on TV, they can do. I have taken the time to explain a lot of things to players on the football field and they ignore it, and have to get flagged or nearly thrown out of the game before they listen. I agree that what was said specifically was not the best, but the coach is ultimately responsible for what their team does, not the official. And football officiating is a little different than basketball officiating when it comes to how players listen and what they listen to. I am not blaming you, just saying teach them in this part of the game what to do. Now you know there are officials right or wrong that will tell kids similar things. Now adjust to what they may hear or face. That is why my crew uses “Guys, careful and do not act stupid and protect yourselves.” And some here would have a problem with that, but that is what we do.

Peace

A muffed snap is far more likely in shotgun.

RockyR, thanks for offering up the situation: I never tell kids not to hit or play. I do, in a situation like that, move in and make it obvious that a knee is going to be taken.. I may, at most, say out loud before the snap something like: 'be smart here" etc. I don't ever tell the defense he is going to take a knee simply becasue I dont trust teenage athletes that much!
Actually it has crossed my mind, but never done it, that if a QB did tells me he was taking a knee and then did something else, flag him for UC, lying to an official ;-).

This brings up another situation that I pregame and sometimes my crew (not always same one each game) look at me funny: "Watch the fake spike"
I saw this from the sideline in a college game a few years ago. late in the game, perfect situation for a clock stopping spike. QB takes snap, fakes like he is throwing the ball down for the spike and then tosses a perfect TD pass into the EZ to a wide open receiver. Problem is, the ball was dead because 3 officials came down on their whistles when they saw the QB's arm go down for the fake spike. it cost a team a TD and needless to say the offended coach was not easy to satisfy. I don't remember if that non-score was the difference in the game...

Alright coach settle down and get back in your box... You've got a beef, I hear ya, I said that. But its not the officials' fault. You're players let the ball become live and not do anything. The same is true in basketball, the referee does not make the ball become dead he simply indicates that something has happened to make the ball dead.

But just for fun lets look at what could have been done...

Some have suggested an unsportsmanlike penalty which being a non-player foul would have succeeding spot enforcement, games already over too bad.

Some have suggested killing the play. Well since nothing happened to cause the ball to be dead we've got an inadvertent whistle. With the indavertant whistle team A chooses to replay obviously. Penalize the USC if you want, but clock starts on the ready and its 4th down. Yeah we've got to extend the period for one untimed down but all team A has to do is let the clock run out, then run their 1 play and take a real knee.

Or same as above but the R invokes the rule which allows him to not start the clock because Team A was trying to consume time "illegally" (which is a stretch). Still Team A can take their snap and run off 10 seconds.

What could not be an option is to whistle the play dead and give Team B a turnover...two fundamentals: 1. No live ball foul causes the ball to become dead. and 2. No foul causes loss of the ball.

So coach I don't know how you would like to rectify this situation, but please feel free to contact your state association if you feel your team was the victim of an unsporting act.

Is there not a rule in NF that declares the ball carrier down whenever they simulate taking a knee? I know under NCAA rules, the ball is dead whenever this happens:

Rule 4-1-3-o
o. When a ball carrier simulates placing his knee on the ground.

I'm surprised that this isn't in the Fed rule set.

The bottom line in this discussion is there isn't anything LEGAL you can do, which doesn't necessarily mean there isn't any number of things you may choose to do. We've argued back and forth about what the officials "should" say and what they should "never" say, and players are "supposed" to be at full alert for every second of the game, but we also expect them to do as we ask. This is an example of what "conumdrum" means, and there's no "silver bullet" answer.

If you're looking to blame someone, the appropriate place to lay the blame might be on the shoulders of a teenage QB who thought he was being smarter than everyone else (great surprise). Be honest rockyroad, you were pissed off because the QB did something you didn't consider fair, and got away with it. Depending on which deffinition of fair being used, you may be right, but very often "right" just isn't all it's cracked up to be..

More than likely the Referee was startled by what was done, and if he thought about what he could do about it, he ultimately concluded nothing (legal). I wouldn't let the QBs coach off the hook either. If the QB was instructed to do what he did, then the coach needs to look in his mirror as well. Of course the coach may have told the player to take the snap and kill the remaining time running around and the QB added the element of faking "a knee" on his own creativity.

Two things to learn from this, First, be really REALLY careful and specific about exactly what you say, if you choose to say anything, because it could bite you on the butt. Adding the little word, "If" can make a big difference. Second, whether words are used, or not, to involve the Referee as a prop in some sort of deception, YOU get to decide whether YOU allow that deception to be successful.

There's not much you can do legally, but there's things you can do to make things right and fix what you perceive as being wrong. Of course that all depends on what you consider "wrong" and are willing to do to make things right.

First of all, I am not looking to "blame" anyone - it was a weird situation and I came here looking for opinions on that situation. Secondly - I am not now, nor was I at the time, "pissed" at anyone. Disappointed that my kids didn't lay a smack on the QB of course, but not pissed off at anyone. That QB played a heck of a game and was one of the major reasons they won - so I shook his hand and told him he played a great game.

I'm really not sure why people assume every single game situation/question is meant as a criticism of the officials. I happen to know the WH on our game - I have reffed basketball games with him for years. We talked after the game and he admitted that it was a situation he had never been in before, it took him by surprise, and he really didn't know what he could have or should have done...so I came here to ask.

Why do y'all make it so hard?
 

Look, this situation is no different than the fake injury, wrong ball or insert you're favorite gimick play. I will not tell the defense anything, even if the QB tells me that he's taking a kneee. Now if a QB come to the line and verbally announces that he's taking a knee, then decide that he's not going to take a knee; we will either have an inadvertant whistle by the referee or a USC on the QB.

There is no place in high school football for this sort of crap. We are to be more than rule enforces, we are game managers...that why the NFHS puts the God rule in the book. It covers anything stupid like this that isn't written out in black and white.

First of all Rut, I couldn't givea$hit where it is. I can speak up for a friend when someone takes a cheap shot if I choose.

Second, if that's what you do in your games, then you're making the same stupid mistake the officials in rockyroad's game made.

Why? How is that any different than him saying that they are going to run the ball up the middle and then throwing a long pass?

Well I have never had a single problem ever saying anything to players at this stage of a game. Maybe the reason I have never had a problem because all coaches, players and officials are not shocked by what we tell them (in other words it is coaches and taught). Now maybe where you live this is uncommon and it would be a problem. Not where I live and I have yet to ever see such a problem, sorry, I have not. And I am sure that is where Rev is coming from. Not sure why you are so fired up about it anyway. It is just a game. ;)

Peace

Sounds like they were coached to follow the instructions of the officials. If only more teams were so well coached. Unfortunately the officials gave som bad instructions. They then didn't have the intestinal fortitude to call the play dead.

This is a bunch of hooey. Official screwed up if he told the kids that. No way around it. Time to call a spade a spade.

You can call it what you want. You can say the officials screwed up. But why has it never happen to me or any other official I have ever worked with or known? Must be some reason and the coaches must be telling them something. You do not have to agree with it, but in the custom I am under, it is expected. The coaches purposely tell us they are taking a knee so their opponent can be informed. In my world this play would have never gotten this far, the play would have been killed by all accounts when he faked going down.

Peace

Jeff, that is what I was asking in the first place. Since the officials told us not to hit him, shouldn't they have killed it right away? You answered the question for me.

I think they should have if they were going to say anything. I could live with this, but again that might not be the custom where you live. And that is probably the problem. You know as an official there are things we do that everyone in an area is aware of and no one says a word. This sounds like there was a standard expected by the crew that you as a coach knew nothing about.

Peace

True...and let's face it, this is probably a "once-in-a-career" type moment. Seriously, how many times does this actually happen in HS games? Sometimes things are so rare that they just catch you by surprise. That's what happened to everyone involved in this game - well, except for the coach and the QB who called it and ran it.

Gentlemen--be alert and no cheap shots is what I tell them as a white hat and the U reenforces. However, my statement to the QB is rather direct "I dont care if you take a knee or not...but get the snap and get down." Then the whistle is extremely quick. How many times have we seen QBs stand there like this were the NFL trying to drain an extra second. I can drain the clock just get down on the knee if you are going. That just a pet peeve of mine.

I always mention that the QB may be taking a knee here and let's be smart...all that good stuff. I also had a kid last weekend pull up and try dropping back to throw downfield. This all after he had already went to a knee once and he and his coach told us he was again going to a knee. Ball was thrown well over receiver's head and OOB. QB got every bit of an earful from me and his coach after that.

It simply is different. One is a deception betwen two types of playes in the normal process of a game. The other is an attempt to use the priority of player safety to get cheap yards.

A kneel down is just another down of the game. There should be nothing safer about it than any other down.

But in the situation I posted, the officials made it different by telling the defense not to hit the QB...