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-   -   Bizarre ending should actually have been touchback, right? (https://forum.officiating.com/football/54818-bizarre-ending-should-actually-have-been-touchback-right.html)

Canned Heat Thu Oct 01, 2009 08:47am
Maybe I'm seeing things, but if you pause it at the :19 mark, it looks as if he catches the scrimmage kick attempt at about the 2 or 3 yard line (I think I see goal line and 5 yard line on each side of the players...look at pylons, too) and advances to the 12 and then spikes it backwards...where it is picked up and returned for TD. Looks like a good call and score to me.

As for how we would handle that....In 5 man we would obviously have 2 men back under the posts for the FG attempt. When it was certain to be short by the BJ (or LJ) he would run up from the posts and make sure the ball did or did not cross the goal line (becoming dead) and either kill it or bag the spot and point the other way towards us so we knew we had a live ball situation. In 4 man (JV/FR) we would have LJ back and white hat catching the other post. LJ would run up to rule on ball crossing the GL and becoming dead or still live..as is what happened here. Good goal line reaction by BJ & LJ from the posts.

Also...is that an inadvertant whistle I hear right before the score..?

Ref Ump Welsch Thu Oct 01, 2009 08:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 628181)
Interesting...this looks like the same video someone else posted on the thread already. But what made me chuckle was, there was a commercial for an insurance company before they showed the video. Maybe the losing team should have bought insurance against kids being stupid and "throwing" the game away. (pun intended here!) :p

Rich Thu Oct 01, 2009 09:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canned Heat (Post 628215)
Maybe I'm seeing things, but if you pause it at the :19 mark, it looks as if he catches the scrimmage kick attempt at about the 2 or 3 yard line (I think I see goal line and 5 yard line on each side of the players...look at pylons, too) and advances to the 12 and then spikes it backwards...where it is picked up and returned for TD. Looks like a good call and score to me.

As for how we would handle that....In 5 man we would obviously have 2 men back under the posts for the FG attempt. When it was certain to be short by the BJ (or LJ) he would run up from the posts and make sure the ball did or did not cross the goal line (becoming dead) and either kill it or bag the spot and point the other way towards us so we knew we had a live ball situation. In 4 man (JV/FR) we would have LJ back and white hat catching the other post. LJ would run up to rule on ball crossing the GL and becoming dead or still live..as is what happened here. I didn't notice...were there any covering officials at the posts for the FG?

Also...is that an inadvertant whistle I hear right before the score..?
In 4-man we put the LJ on the end line, but not under a post -- he has only the crossbar and gives the R a thinbs up or thumbs down. That way the wing can get to the open goal line pylon. The R calls both uprights (lining up behind the kick) and the L handles the roughing of the kicker and holder.

whitehat Thu Oct 01, 2009 09:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chymechowder (Post 628164)
question from a HS official in Mass., where a scrimmage kick needs to touch the GROUND on or behind Team B's goal line for it to be a dead ball. (and not having been touched by Team B before hitting the ground.)

you're talking about the field goal attempt becoming dead by rule once it crosses the goal line. is that a special rule just for FG attempts? or does it apply to all srimmage kicks?

(It would seem odd to me that there can be no returns of punts fielded in the endzone). thanks
If I'm not mistaken Mass and Texas use NCAA rules for football. I am sure Texas does. The rule is different for NF than for NCAA. NF as soon as the ball breaks the plane of the goal line on all kicks entereing R's EZ it is dead.

Canned Heat Thu Oct 01, 2009 09:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 628225)
In 4-man we put the LJ on the end line, but not under a post -- he has only the crossbar and gives the R a thinbs up or thumbs down. That way the wing can get to the open goal line pylon. The R calls both uprights (lining up behind the kick) and the L handles the roughing of the kicker and holder.
Is your umpire still up, and does he shade to a side or help out after the kick is gone? Our LJ that is back will take that open side in case we have a "fire sale" or fake and try to get over there. We had a FG try a few weeks ago where the ball skipped off the right GP, went down and thru, hit the support beam running to the ground and spun backwards out. When I called it good, you should've seen the sideline and crowd ruckus. Lots of people were howling about my former physics education.

Had I not had a guy back to see all of that, I may have ruled that no good on my own account. I'm at the same venue tonight fist time since.

bigjohn Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:04am
http://i33.tinypic.com/2jd5ca1.jpg

Looks like it crossed the GL to me!

bigjohn Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:06am
Video - WCAX.COM Local Vermont News, Weather and Sports-

mbyron Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:13am
Repost that image a few more times. It really strengthens your argument that the officials blew it. :rolleyes:

ajmc Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:34am
For what it's worth, our 4 man crew hates the recommended try/short FG mechanic that has the LJ on the LOS and moving to the GL, on the flank, to call over/under. We've decided to focus on the 95% and deal with the busted play, fire-drill when it happens, and stay with what we know works.

The LJ is near his post, by the end line focused on responding to a kick try. The Umpire shades towards the LJ's sideline. If the play breaks down, the Umpire takes responsibility for the Goal line on the LJ's side (from the inside out), and the LJ gets to the corner of the End Line and Sideline, to cover the sideline. That's how we had done it for years, have never had a problem collaborating the few times needed and are a lot more comfortable that we're able to cover the entire play a lot better.

bigjohn Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:40am
Sure strengthens the arguement that the officials had poor mechanics, don't you think?

:eek:

bossman72 Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:10am
Did some Zappreuder analysis of this film.

Note this image - check out the shadow left by the tree noted by the green arrow.

http://i34.tinypic.com/dq2ccg.png

Now, ASSUMING both referees are on the goal line, we can draw an approximate goal line, which cuts right above the shadow landmark.

http://i34.tinypic.com/zlcdx5.png


So, it looks like this is VERY close to the goal line (not 5 yds in) and the referees probably weren't positive the ball crossed the plain, so they let it go.

Note: the camera may have moved a little from it's original position on about the 7 to about the 4, so the parallax/angle may be off a little.

How's that for analysis?

asdf Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:24am
You cannot tell for sure here, we all (well except for one) seem to agree.

Go to the spot in the film where the catch is made and then look at the official signaling TD in the middle of the field. Use the shadows for a reference pont.

It's certainly close, but I'd lean towards the ball not breaking the plane.

It may have been stated prior, and if it was, I apologize for repeating this...

If the player leaves the ball alone.... it would not have mattered.

ajmc Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:21pm
If you really insist on there being blame placed somewhere, perhaps it should be directed at the assistant coach whose responsibility it was to teach all his players that after each play, the ball should be handed to the nearest official and NEVER thrown to the ground, in any direction.

bigjohn Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:45pm
No, the special teams coordinator should never have someone deeper than the 10 yard line on any Scrimmage Kick! Period.

Mike L Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:46pm
I guess my main concern is why neither under the post official moved once it was obvious the kick was way short. If I'm under & see defenders back there I'm thinking the kick is going to be short and these idiots are going to field it. If you go into a play thinking the strange is going to happen, you rarely get surprised by it.


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