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Bizarre ending should actually have been touchback, right?
See this article...
Alert play leads to bizarre ending in Vermont football game - MaxPreps Articles Now, I've worked varsity FB for a few years now, and every time we pre-game, we discuss that any punt or FG attempt that crosses the goal line dead and considered a touchback. After reading the article, can we safely assume that somebody botched this one or am I really missing something? :confused: |
Bashing officials is frowned on at this forum you know!:rolleyes:
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Do we know what rule code applies? NCAA and NFHS are different on this point, I believe.
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I'm not bashing, I'm asking for clarification for my own education and to make sure I'm not missing something. Just because you've never seen me of the football forum doesn't mean that I'm coming on here and official bashing. Paranoid much? :rolleyes: |
I've yet to see any video that shows the ball breaking the vertical plane of the goal line. I have heard conflicting reports on whether or not it did. I'll reserve judgement until I see conclusive video.
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If you really want to dissect this thing, we have an illegal forward pass as well!! Of course, if it was described correctly in the paper, that is ignored because, as was said before, breaks the plane, call it dead. But htbt.
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According to this site, Vermont uses NFHS rules.
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Video of the play:
Leon Lett Is Finally Off The Hook - Oops - Deadspin I cannot see that the ball clearly crossed the goal line from that angle. One of the officials should have rushed forward to the goal line to make sure the ball did not break the plane. The spike also appears to have travelled backwards. Until I see an angle that clearly shows the ball crossing the line, I say it's a touchdown. |
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http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3...90930at110.png |
Hard to tell from the video if ball was in EZ. According to the article it was in the EZ and if so the ball is dead as soon as it breaks the plane.
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well the article in the OP definitely names names.
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you really are a troll, aren't you? http://alanisgood.com/wp-content/upl...eed_trolls.jpg |
The kick was about five yards short and was fielded in the end zone by an Otter Valley player who ran it out to his 11, where he spiked the ball and began celebrating.
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Either way, the ball was not blown dead (which is a judgment of the officials) and the player threw the ball down backwards as he approached near the 10 yard line. This is not an illegal pass; this is a backward pass which would make the play still live. The video was really hard to tell where the lines were. But the officials did not stop officiating and ruled this a TD.
I guess the Referee should have had a conversation with the two officials that were standing right there and everything would have been resolved. ;) Peace |
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why the F was the fielding the kick anyway? that's just 4 kinds of retarded right there
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I think you're looking at the picture that was posted incorrectly. The picture from earlier in the post shows three pylons, the one all the way on the left is in line with the inbounds marks, the center pylon is at the back corner, and the goal line pylon is all the way on the right. That picture, plus the REPORT that it was caught 5 yards deep seems is proof enough for me that the crew booted the call. The BJ should have been able to see an R player catching the ball in the EZ. Since it is clear the receiver did not have 15' arms it should have been easy to rule this as being in the EZ. |
Mechanics....
So what mechanics does your crew use to make sure this doesn't happen to you???
Just mentioning this because I can imagine that most crews would not have anyone on the goal line or anyone who can get there quickly. When it is apparent that the kick is going to be short, does your BJ try to get to the goal line?? I can see where this could easily be blown if R was coming out of the endzone and caught the ball close to the goal line. |
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If it was in the endzone, it was close. |
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Take another look at the video and take notice of the shadows on the field. In particular, notice where the officials signal the TD (assuming they're on the GL) and where the receiver fields the ball. I believe he is very close to the GL and probably at the 1-2 yd line. I also agree with others that he throws a backwards pass, not an IFP. This would have been an extremely difficult play to officiate and virtually impossible to have everyone in a perfect vantage point to rule on everything. That said, I think they got it right. The reporter definetely didn't. |
question from a HS official in Mass., where a scrimmage kick needs to touch the GROUND on or behind Team B's goal line for it to be a dead ball. (and not having been touched by Team B before hitting the ground.)
you're talking about the field goal attempt becoming dead by rule once it crosses the goal line. is that a special rule just for FG attempts? or does it apply to all srimmage kicks? (It would seem odd to me that there can be no returns of punts fielded in the endzone). thanks |
chyme, it applies to ALL legal kicks, both scrimmage and free kicks. As soon as the kick breaks the plane of the goal line, the ball is dead and it is a touchback for B.
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In all seriousness though, I looked at where it was caught, right near the end of the shadows, then I looked where the ref was when he signalled TD, also seemed to be in line with the end of the shadows. So yes, I'm probably guilty of believing the news report that it was kicked 5 yards deep into the EZ. But then again, I'm 3500 miles away and I trust everything that they say on the news! :p |
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This looks very short actually. The ball carrier only takes a few steps and they are at the 10 yard line. I cannot tell definitively, but the officials were right there and I was not.
Peace |
Maybe I'm seeing things, but if you pause it at the :19 mark, it looks as if he catches the scrimmage kick attempt at about the 2 or 3 yard line (I think I see goal line and 5 yard line on each side of the players...look at pylons, too) and advances to the 12 and then spikes it backwards...where it is picked up and returned for TD. Looks like a good call and score to me.
As for how we would handle that....In 5 man we would obviously have 2 men back under the posts for the FG attempt. When it was certain to be short by the BJ (or LJ) he would run up from the posts and make sure the ball did or did not cross the goal line (becoming dead) and either kill it or bag the spot and point the other way towards us so we knew we had a live ball situation. In 4 man (JV/FR) we would have LJ back and white hat catching the other post. LJ would run up to rule on ball crossing the GL and becoming dead or still live..as is what happened here. Good goal line reaction by BJ & LJ from the posts. Also...is that an inadvertant whistle I hear right before the score..? |
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Had I not had a guy back to see all of that, I may have ruled that no good on my own account. I'm at the same venue tonight fist time since. |
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Repost that image a few more times. It really strengthens your argument that the officials blew it. :rolleyes:
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For what it's worth, our 4 man crew hates the recommended try/short FG mechanic that has the LJ on the LOS and moving to the GL, on the flank, to call over/under. We've decided to focus on the 95% and deal with the busted play, fire-drill when it happens, and stay with what we know works.
The LJ is near his post, by the end line focused on responding to a kick try. The Umpire shades towards the LJ's sideline. If the play breaks down, the Umpire takes responsibility for the Goal line on the LJ's side (from the inside out), and the LJ gets to the corner of the End Line and Sideline, to cover the sideline. That's how we had done it for years, have never had a problem collaborating the few times needed and are a lot more comfortable that we're able to cover the entire play a lot better. |
Sure strengthens the arguement that the officials had poor mechanics, don't you think?
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Did some Zappreuder analysis of this film.
Note this image - check out the shadow left by the tree noted by the green arrow. http://i34.tinypic.com/dq2ccg.png Now, ASSUMING both referees are on the goal line, we can draw an approximate goal line, which cuts right above the shadow landmark. http://i34.tinypic.com/zlcdx5.png So, it looks like this is VERY close to the goal line (not 5 yds in) and the referees probably weren't positive the ball crossed the plain, so they let it go. Note: the camera may have moved a little from it's original position on about the 7 to about the 4, so the parallax/angle may be off a little. How's that for analysis? |
You cannot tell for sure here, we all (well except for one) seem to agree.
Go to the spot in the film where the catch is made and then look at the official signaling TD in the middle of the field. Use the shadows for a reference pont. It's certainly close, but I'd lean towards the ball not breaking the plane. It may have been stated prior, and if it was, I apologize for repeating this... If the player leaves the ball alone.... it would not have mattered. |
If you really insist on there being blame placed somewhere, perhaps it should be directed at the assistant coach whose responsibility it was to teach all his players that after each play, the ball should be handed to the nearest official and NEVER thrown to the ground, in any direction.
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No, the special teams coordinator should never have someone deeper than the 10 yard line on any Scrimmage Kick! Period.
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I guess my main concern is why neither under the post official moved once it was obvious the kick was way short. If I'm under & see defenders back there I'm thinking the kick is going to be short and these idiots are going to field it. If you go into a play thinking the strange is going to happen, you rarely get surprised by it.
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All I can say is hey bossman, "Back and to the left"!
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Here's the video
Here is the video. Judging from the TV anchorman, he says its kicked in the endzone but I don't think he was at the game. If he is in the endzone, its not by much.
I think he was in the endzone. I base this on the shadows. If you freeze the video where the back catches the ball, you can see the shadow. After the fumble is returned for a TD, the video shows the goal line. Its not exactly clear but I think he was in. However, I will take the opinion of two officials that were in position to determine if the kick was good. At most, they were only 10 yards away. Vermont football team wins after crazy fumble recovery - Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports |
I used to live in Vermont and I know someone who used to go to Otter Valley. They happen to be at the game and said it was caught at the 2. Take it for what it's worth but it would make sense if this is true. I find it hard to believe 5 man crew would not have been able to remember the rule about a scrimmage kick breaking the plane of the end zone.
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What say you now? |
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