batting

[benbret]

NF Rules 4th and 10 for team A. Team A is in punt formation. The punter fumbles the snap. The ball is loose on the ground behind the line of scrimmage. The punter kicks the ball while it is loose on the ground. Is this illegal and if so what is the penatly?

[jaybird]

Illegal Kicking.
Need more information. What was the result of the play. B will have options.

[benbret]

The punter kicked the ball and it went out of bounds at the original line of scrimmage.

[whitehat]

I'm with Jaybird, illiegal kicking.

OK while typing I see we have more info added....the kick went out of bound at LOS.

all but one enforcement would be a 15 yard penalty from spot of illegal kick (basic spot is previous spot since loose ball play)
Illegal kicking does not carry loss of down. Since ball went out of bounds, B would have choice of enforcing 15 yard penalty and have A replay 4th down, or decline and take ball at spot it went out of bounds.

[Robert Goodman]

Interesting in that the Fed result is different from NCAA's, if we take "fumbled the snap" literally, i.e. that the would-be punter gained possession of the ball and then fumbled. (He probably meant "muffed the snap", but this is for the sake of argument.) Then, because kicking of the loose ball doesn't change its status as a fumble, you'd have a fumble going out of bounds ahead of the spot where it was fumbled from, so team B would get to take a better spot if they decline the penalty in NCAA than they would get in Fed.

Robert

[mbyron]

Why is the title of this thread "batting"?

[whitehat]

i was wondering the same thing...;-)

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by whitehat

I'm with Jaybird, illiegal kicking.

OK while typing I see we have more info added....the kick went out of bound at LOS.

all but one enforcement would be a 15 yard penalty from spot of illegal kick (basic spot is previous spot since loose ball play)
Illegal kicking does not carry loss of down. Since ball went out of bounds, B would have choice of enforcing 15 yard penalty and have A replay 4th down, or decline and take ball at spot it went out of bounds.

A word of caution. On 4th down, when the kicked ball went OOB short of the line to gain, the result of the play would be R taking over where the ball went OOB because K failed to make the LTG and lost the ball on downs (NOT because it was a kick OOB).

Because a kicked loose ball is treated as a fumble, should the OOB spot be beyond the LTG, taking the results of the play (a fumbled ball OOB belongs to the team last in possession at the OOB spot) would give the ball to K, with a 1st and 10.

[golfnref]

Originally Posted by ajmc

A word of caution. On 4th down, when the kicked ball went OOB short of the line to gain, the result of the play would be R taking over where the ball went OOB because K failed to make the LTG and lost the ball on downs (NOT because it was a kick OOB).

Because a kicked loose ball is treated as a fumble, should the OOB spot be beyond the LTG, taking the results of the play (a fumbled ball OOB belongs to the team last in possession at the OOB spot) would give the ball to K, with a 1st and 10.

I wouldn't let the captain make a mistake and decline the penalty. I know the purists will have an opinion on this.

[whitehat]

Good clarification AJMC: this is not a scrimage kick or just a "kick" but an illegal kick and therefore treated as a fumble.

I'm with Golfnref, since this is an illegal kick (although considered a fumble) even if ball went OOB beyond LTG B would certainly take the penatly and not give K a 1st and 10.

don't ya just love how intricate and complicated this game can be ;-)

Just as further commentary between a scrimmage kick and this illegal kick:
6-2-7 reminds us "When any scrimmage kick is OOB between the goal lines or becomes dead inbounds between the goal lines while no player is in possession, or inbounds anywhere while players are in joint possession, the ball is awarded to R..." (this is regardless of the down when scrimmage kick took place)

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by whitehat

Good clarification AJMC: this is not a scrimage kick or just a "kick" but an illegal kick and therefore treated as a fumble.

Technically in Fed, NCAA, and NFL, it's not an illegal kick, but illegally kicking the ball. It's a fumble because it was already a fumble when it was kicked.

[mikesears]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Interesting in that the Fed result is different from NCAA's, if we take "fumbled the snap" literally, i.e. that the would-be punter gained possession of the ball and then fumbled. (He probably meant "muffed the snap", but this is for the sake of argument.) Then, because kicking of the loose ball doesn't change its status as a fumble, you'd have a fumble going out of bounds ahead of the spot where it was fumbled from, so team B would get to take a better spot if they decline the penalty in NCAA than they would get in Fed.

Robert

NCAA, illegally kicking the ball or illegally batting the ball are loss of down fouls, so team B (R) may very well want to accept the penalty unless the spot where the ball went out of bounds was more than 15 yards behind the spot of the foul.

[Welpe]

In NFHS, there is no difference between an illegal kick and illegal kicking.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Welpe

In NFHS, there is no difference between an illegal kick and illegal kicking.

I think there are differences owing to the fact that illegal kicking does not produce a kick. IIRC you can make a fair catch of an illegal kick, but not of an illegally kicked ball, and so a bunch of consequences in the rules. The illegally kicked ball doesn't become dead on entering the opposing end zone. An illegal kick, but not an illegally kicked ball, belongs to opponents on becoming dead (by going out of bounds, coming to rest with nobody trying to secure possession, or inadvertent whistle). Please correct me if I'm wrong about these recollections or if they're outdated.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

IIRC you can make a fair catch of an illegal kick

No you can't. You can only fair catch a scrimmage or free kick, both of which are defined as legal kicks. The rule book makes no distinction between either. In fact, the rule book only defines an illegal kick.

The illegally kicked ball doesn't become dead on entering the opposing end zone.

It does if it was originally a legal kick. A legal kick doesn't lose it's status as a kick by being illegally kicked.