Kick play

[bossman72]

4th and 8 from K's 30. R33 holds K12 beyond the NZ during the kick. The kick is rolling and is first touched by K at the K 45. R44 picks up the ball and runs it back to the K20 where he fumbles and K recovers.

If K declines the penalty, R can take the result of the play or take the ball at the spot of first touching, correct?

If K accepts the penalty, that's where I'm a little more hazy. If it's accepted, R cannot take it at first touching and this would not be PSK enforcement since K is next to put the ball in play, correct? So it would be enforced from the previous spot and replay the down (if the penalty didn't make the line to gain)?

Thanks!

[mbyron]

You're right that this isn't PSK. But why would R get the ball if K declines the penalty?

5-1-3: When a scrimmage down ends with the ball in the field of play or
out of bounds between the goal lines, a new series is awarded to:
d. The team in possession at the end of the down, if there is a change of team
possession during the down, unless the penalty is accepted for a non postscrimmage
kick foul which occurred before the change of possession.

[ref1986]

bossman,

Right on both counts. It's not PSK, so if K accepts the penalty it's previous spot. If for some reason K declines the penalty, R will get the ball at the spot of first touching. This is unlikely, but could happen. Suppose it had been 4th and 12 and K rocketed a kick that was first touched at R's 20. K might decline the penalty because it wouldn't be a first down and let R have the ball at R's 20.

[ppaltice]

You have first touching, a PSK foul and K in possession at the end of the down. The only time first touching is cancelled is if R fouls after touching the ball or if any foul is accepted.

If K accepts the penalty, it will be 10 yards from either the end of the kick or the spot of the foul (using all but one).

If K declines the penalty, R will most certainly take the ball at the spot of first touching. (R could decline to take the ball at first touching too and it will be K's ball).

The key to remember for PSK (2-16-2h) is that it is not who is in possession at the end of the down, but whether K would be the next to put the ball in play. Since we have First Touching, that is not the case.

We can make the play simpler, keeping the same two elements that are confusing you:

4th and 8 from K's 30. R33 holds K12 beyond the NZ during the kick. K20 falls on the untouched kick at R15 yard line.

We still have First Touching, PSK and K in possession at the end of the down.

[insatty]

First touching is never a live-ball-penalty-enforcement spot. This holding foul is enforced from previous spot (loose-ball play). K did not obtain ball with clean hands, because of first-touching violation, and since K recovered fumble there is not PSK. Options are: Decline penalty and R gets ball at first-touching spot; accept penalty and K has 1/10 @ K40. So K will obviously accept penalty.

[ppaltice]

This is a PSK enforcement foul. It meets all of the criteria of 2-16-2h including part 5) and K will not be next to put the ball in play. And absolutely you must consider the first touching in determining if this is a PSK foul or not.

Again, think of this play first:

PLAY1: 4th and 8 from K's 30. R33 holds K12 beyond the NZ during the kick. K20 falls on the untouched kick at R15 yard line.

K has possession of the ball at the end of the down. But R will be the next to put the ball in play (because of the first touching by K). R33's hold will be enforced using PSK enforcement. The enforcement spot will be determined from the all but 1 between where the kick ended and the spot of the foul.

PLAY2: 4th and 8 from K's 30. R33 holds K12 beyond the NZ during the kick. K20 touches the ball on R15 yard line and the ball goes out of bounds.

Still PSK foul since R will be the next to put the ball in play. The enforcement spot will be the inbounds spot of where the ball went OOB (or the spot of the foul, depending on which is worse).

PLAY3: 4th and 8 from K's 30. R33 holds K12 beyond the NZ during the kick. R86 touches the ball on R15 yard line and K falls on the ball at R20 yard line.

This is not a PSK foul as K will be the next to put the ball into play. K has the option of accepting the penalty (10 yds from previous spot and replay down) or declining the penalty and taking the ball 1st and 10 at spot of recovery.

PLAY4 (Orig): 4th and 8 from K's 30. R33 holds K12 beyond the NZ during the kick. The kick is rolling and is first touched by K at the K 45. R44 picks up the ball and runs it back to the K20 where he fumbles and K recovers.

Like play1, R will be the next to team to put the ball into play due to first touching. So, this is a PSK foul. The enforcement spot is where R picked up the ball (end of kick) or spot of the hold, depending on which is worse.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by bossman72

4th and 8 from K's 30. R33 holds K12 beyond the NZ during the kick. The kick is rolling and is first touched by K at the K 45. R44 picks up the ball and runs it back to the K20 where he fumbles and K recovers.

CANADIAN RULING:

K won't decline R's foul because R will then accept K's foul, and keep the ball, thus negating K's recovery.

R33's hold - before the ball is punted, or after?

If before:
Holding on R, No Yards on K. Net is back 5 yards, repeat the down. K 4D/13 @ K-25.

If after:
Holding on R, No Yards on K. Net is up 5 yards, 1D for R. R 1D/10 @ K-40.

[insatty]

My schedule forces me to study NCAA rules more than NFHS, so I may be missing something because of the difference in PSK (compare NCAA 10-2-3-e to NFHS 2-16-2-h-5).

But the rules' clear language suggests that the flaw in Ppaltice's analysis is that K must accept the penalty to avoid R getting the ball at the first-touching spot. So when K accepts the penalty, R's right to take the ball at the first-touching spot is canceled:

"The right of R to take the ball at spot of first touching by K is canceled if . . . the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down." 6-2-5.

When the right to take the ball at the first-touching spot is canceled, K is the next to put the ball in play. Thus, no PSK enforcement.

There may exist an interpretation that mandates PSK in this instance, but I don't know of it.

[UpNorthRef]

R is not in possession at the end of the down if the penalty is accepted so it cannot be PSK. The foul for R holding would be enforced from the previous spot as a loose ball foul. If the penalty is declined by K it will be R's ball at the spot of first touching. This is an interesting twist to see if there is a conflict between PSK and first touching.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by insatty

My schedule forces me to study NCAA rules more than NFHS, so I may be missing something because of the difference in PSK (compare NCAA 10-2-3-e to NFHS 2-16-2-h-5).

But the rules' clear language suggests that the flaw in Ppaltice's analysis is that K must accept the penalty to avoid R getting the ball at the first-touching spot. So when K accepts the penalty, R's right to take the ball at the first-touching spot is canceled:

"The right of R to take the ball at spot of first touching by K is canceled if . . . the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down." 6-2-5.

When the right to take the ball at the first-touching spot is canceled, K is the next to put the ball in play. Thus, no PSK enforcement.

There may exist an interpretation that mandates PSK in this instance, but I don't know of it.

This is how I interpreted it

[ppaltice]

What is your ruling on this:

PLAY1: 4th and 8 from K's 30. R33 holds K12 beyond the NZ during the kick. K20 falls on the untouched kick at R15 yard line.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

What is your ruling on this:

PLAY1: 4th and 8 from K's 30. R33 holds K12 beyond the NZ during the kick. K20 falls on the untouched kick at R15 yard line.

Garden variety PSK and first touching. Half the distance from R15, 1/10 for R at R7.5, snap.

Why is this play instructive? The complication of the OP comes from the turnover.

[ppaltice]

Because in the OP with a turnover, you also have first touching. Why is one case of first touching "garden variety" and another ignored?

[VALJ]

The play you post is the very definition of PSK - R's foul occurs after the snap, beyond the NZ, before the kick ends, and R will be the team to put the ball into play.

[UpNorthRef]

"Because in the OP with a turnover, you also have first touching. Why is one case of first touching "garden variety" and another ignored?"

Because the play is over when K secured possession of the kick in example 2. In the original play there was only first touching and the play continued.