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-   -   Double Foul (https://forum.officiating.com/football/53849-double-foul.html)

SC Ump Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:16am
Double Foul
 
NFHS: 3rd and 10 on A's 20. A has only six men on the line at the snap. The runner breaks away and is headed for an apparent touchdown. As the runner is well down field, an A blocker takes a cheap shot at a B player completely out of the play.

Should you (a) offset the illegal formation and personal fouls to replay the down or (b) enforce both resulting in 1st and 10 at A's 30?

golfdesigner Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:38am
Multiple Foul not Double Foul
 
Here's my run at your play.
I think you are describing two fouls on the same team (A) the offense. This isn't a double foul, it's a multiple foul. You have illegal formation (IF) on A, and you have either a personal foul (PF) on A or an unsportsmanlike conduct (USC) on A.
If it's an IF and PF B will have choice of which of the two fouls to accept. Depending on where the personal foul occurs, B may elect to enforce the illegal formation and penalize 5-yds from the previous spot (PS) and replay the down.
If what you saw on the A blocker clocking B, was a USC, then that's a live ball foul treated as a dead ball foul, and B could accept the IF move the ball back 5-yds from previous spot (PS) then tack on an additional 15-yds for the USC, you will still replay the down, since the IF got the replay of the down.
This could be a big double whammy on A, mostly for being stupid.

Welpe Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:11pm
A taking a cheapshot at B will never be USC, it is always a personal foul.

You have multiple live ball fouls by one team during the play and only one can be enforced.

B has the option of taking the illegal formation penalty from the previous spot or taking the PF enforced under all but one.

I'd post rule references but I'm posting this from my Blackberry waiting for the 4th of July parade to start. :)

Happy 4th everyone!

Texas Aggie Sat Jul 04, 2009 01:14pm
Hmm. This is an interesting play. We (using NCAA rules) usually put as many cheap shot, behind the play, personal fouls in the dead ball category on scoring runs -- or even just long plays -- as possible. I said scoring runs since they usually happen on those sorts of plays. Anyway, often the contact is technically while the ball is still alive but if its 20 yards downfield (from the back), its a dead ball foul and will be enforced as such. I or my crew called this maybe half a dozen times last year and didn't hear anything from the coaches on it, as the hit was clearly indefensible and they were probably *****ing out their player.

On this play, we have to bring the TD or long run back and it is going to be a fact specific decision as to whether to offset or enforce both. How bad was the hit? Where in relation to the play was it? What down was it? I know some will have a problem with this and if you do, then there is nothing wrong with you offsetting the penalties. Where I work, in both HS and college, we'd take a little more detailed look into the play.

jaybird Sat Jul 04, 2009 01:40pm
Welpe got it. A, 3/15 @ A15.

Forksref Sat Jul 04, 2009 03:46pm
Multiple fouls - B gets choice
 
Only non-contact fouls are USC.

You didn't give a yardline for the cheap shot "way downfield" but it would appear that the best option for B is the IF foul, 5 yds from the previous spot and replay.

Ed Hickland Sat Jul 04, 2009 09:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie (Post 612413)
Hmm. This is an interesting play. We (using NCAA rules) usually put as many cheap shot, behind the play, personal fouls in the dead ball category on scoring runs -- or even just long plays -- as possible. I said scoring runs since they usually happen on those sorts of plays. Anyway, often the contact is technically while the ball is still alive but if its 20 yards downfield (from the back), its a dead ball foul and will be enforced as such. I or my crew called this maybe half a dozen times last year and didn't hear anything from the coaches on it, as the hit was clearly indefensible and they were probably *****ing out their player.

On this play, we have to bring the TD or long run back and it is going to be a fact specific decision as to whether to offset or enforce both. How bad was the hit? Where in relation to the play was it? What down was it? I know some will have a problem with this and if you do, then there is nothing wrong with you offsetting the penalties. Where I work, in both HS and college, we'd take a little more detailed look into the play.
That is an interesting penalty enforcement by making the contact foul a dead ball foul it changes the whole dynamic versus enforcing the fouls as written, that is, two live ball fouls. As written, B has a choice of fouls; per the alternate B can get the effect of both fouls.

mbyron Sun Jul 05, 2009 08:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Ump (Post 612382)
NFHS: 3rd and 10 on A's 20. A has only six men on the line at the snap. The runner breaks away and is headed for an apparent touchdown. As the runner is well down field, an A blocker takes a cheap shot at a B player completely out of the play.

Should you (a) offset the illegal formation and personal fouls to replay the down or (b) enforce both resulting in 1st and 10 at A's 30?
What if he meant a PF by B away from the play, for a true double foul? Offset and replay.

SC Ump Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 612487)
What if he meant a PF by B away from the play, for a true double foul? Offset and replay.
You are exactly right. I was typing the play quickly because my wife was rushing me to our July 4th party... that's my story and I'm sticking with it. :)

What are your thoughts if we adjust the original play to be what I originally was thinking:

NFHS: 3rd and 10 on A's 20. A has only six men on the line at the snap. The runner breaks away and is headed for an apparent touchdown. As the runner is well down field, a B lineman takes a cheap shot (hard blind sided block) at an A player completely out of the play.

Offsetting fouls or enforce both.

(I will post another thread with a Redding play that was the genesis for this question.)

ajmc Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:16pm
NF: 10-2-1, "It is a double foul if both teams commit fouls, other than unsportsmanlike or nonplayer, during the same live-ball period ( and then goes on to explain several issue that don'y apply to this situation)".

A's foul for Illegal formation is simultaneous with the snap, and B's unnecessary hit is a Personal foul, both live ball fouls. Penalties offset, replay the down.

Robert Goodman Sun Jul 05, 2009 08:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Hickland (Post 612448)
That is an interesting penalty enforcement by making the contact foul a dead ball foul it changes the whole dynamic versus enforcing the fouls as written, that is, two live ball fouls. As written, B has a choice of fouls; per the alternate B can get the effect of both fouls.
This is one of the reasons I favor a finding that the cheap shot occurred after the ball was dead rather than before. Sometimes it favors the offense, sometimes the defense, but I think it's always more equitable that way.

Robert

ajmc Mon Jul 06, 2009 07:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 612599)
This is one of the reasons I favor a finding that the cheap shot occurred after the ball was dead rather than before. Sometimes it favors the offense, sometimes the defense, but I think it's always more equitable that way.

Robert
If the contact was after the score, or perceived to be after the score calling a dead bal foul a dead ball foul is the way to go. Unfortunately, however, arbitrarily changing a live ball foul to a dead ball foul only accomplishes one thing; it ALWAYS favors the criminal and NEVER favors the victim.

If you feel you have to respond to sideline complaints about the punishment, of wiping points off the board, not fitting the crime, you might suggest, "That's a coaching issue that should be taught", although simply ignoring the complaints might be the better path to follow.

Robert Goodman Mon Jul 06, 2009 07:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 612664)
If the contact was after the score, or perceived to be after the score calling a dead bal foul a dead ball foul is the way to go. Unfortunately, however, arbitrarily changing a live ball foul to a dead ball foul only accomplishes one thing; it ALWAYS favors the criminal and NEVER favors the victim.
No, not in the case mentioned above. If both fouls were by A, they'd have to choose one penalty if the fouls were both during the live ball interval, which would cause the personal foul to be ignored when the previous spot was far behind the point of the foul. If the personal foul was after the ball was dead, the penalty for it would wind up being enforced.

Robert

ajmc Tue Jul 07, 2009 07:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 612846)
No, not in the case mentioned above. If both fouls were by A, they'd have to choose one penalty if the fouls were both during the live ball interval, which would cause the personal foul to be ignored when the previous spot was far behind the point of the foul. If the personal foul was after the ball was dead, the penalty for it would wind up being enforced.

Robert
The fouled team always has the "CHOICE"

Robert Goodman Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 612925)
The fouled team always has the "CHOICE"
Whoopee. Sometimes it's a meaningless choice.


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