NFHS - Same numbers
 

If a B75 is a substitute coming on the field to replace a teammate who has the same number jersey, should the official prohibit this?

Case book 7-2-5 Sit C, seems to say this is not a problem.

Redding Study guide does not say it's a foul but that the official should prohibit the substitution <s>is</s> if it is noticed. (Oops, I read it wrong. See correction post below.)

Rule book seems to be silent on it... meaning it's legal as I understand it.

NFHS 7-2-5c states players of the same team shall not participate during the same down.

Not having read Redding I believe the rationale is that an official should prevent this foul if at all possible. It is a live ball foul.

Are they participating during the same down if one leaves the field and another enters the field before the down begins?

From the 2009 Case Book
 

*7.2.5 SITUATION C: Substitute A1 comes in to replace A2. Both are wearing Number 88. RULING: No violaion unless both participate at the same time (1-4-3, 7-2-5c)


This play has been in the case book since (at least) prior to the 1999 issue.
I see absolutly no reason, nor is their any rule book supportf or an official to "insert himself into the game" in this situation!

This brings up another good question. I can see the OP happening in a sub-varsity game. If the coach said something before the game, that he might have two players in the game with the same number, do you cut him some slack knowing it's a sub-varsity game?

We did it a few years ago, informing the opposing coach of the situation before the game of course. The opposing coach had no problem with it at the time, but at halftime, he started griping about it causing problems for his players. My white hat said this is a freaking Saturday morning freshman game, give it a break.

Considering the NFHS Rules definition of "Participation"
(NF: 2-30) "Participation is any act or action by a player or non-player that has an influence on play." it appears the prohibition would only apply to a substitution performed when the ball was alive.

You left yourself wide open by allowing it even at the sub-varsity level. Surely you cannot tell me that with all 99 numbers available the coach cannot work out an arrangement where duplicate numbers are participating at the same time.

And, as sure as you allow it this week, next week when I come along and say "no", coach says, they allowed it last week.

There is a little math to help understand this situation.

There are 22 players on the field at any one time, 11 on each side. Anyone else is a non-player. When a non-player is summoned into the game he becomes a substitute. When he enters and tells the player he is being replaced the former substitute becomes a player and the former player becomes a replaced player.

Until the ball is snapped -- and the down begins, a player is not participating.

I guess it depends on what's accepted in your area. JV and freshman games around here are treated with a lot more leniency. Some schools are lucky enough to have enough jerseys to outfit the team, let alone worry about numbers. It's not a common problem but I have worked games where a back was wearing a lineman's number, or vice-versa. The offending coach usually informs us of the situation before the game and I've never had an opposing coach complain.

"This is a freaking Saturday morning freshman game, give it a break!"
 

I fully support "Ref Ump Welsch's" white hat who hit the nail on the head when he correctly told the coach: "This is a freaking Saturday morning freshman game, give it a break!"

I believe these situations require a little common sense.
For example: In the (JV or lower) pre-game conference when I ask if he runs anything unusual, the head coach says "No we are still learning to snap the football , but OK Ref, I got a guy that wears #99 and he plays left guard the whole game. I might say Coach do you have 50-79 number he can wear? He usually responds with say "No, he is so fat he can't wear anything but 99, crap ref, we are lucky his uncle Fred is a taylor cause he had to sew two jerseys together just to make one large enough!" Or, he might say, hey ref, are budgets are so tight we are lucky to find enough white jersays to field a team. Either way, you need to take the coach at his word that he is doing the best he can to field a team, inform the opposing coach of the situation, and kick-off the game on time.
After all; "This is a freaking Saturday morning freshman game, give it a break!"

Oh, by the way, my usual response is I tell the head coach (of #99) that I intend on informing the opposing coach of the #99 situation AND; unless I return, consider it OK for 99 to play left guard. When I inform him of this, it is not unusual to get a response of something like; Geez ref, thanks for being understanding and working with us, that guy we had last week was a real by the book Bob, he flagged 99 for "Illegal Numbering" and so we were stuck, #99 didn't even get to play after that. :rolleyes:

That's my 2 cents

Not here. We require teams to follow the numbering rules at all levels.

And we've never had an issue with it.


I understand the situation. I replied because I didn't think that you did. :)

You said the "official should prevent this foul if at all possible." If one is entering and one is leaving, what foul is there to prevent?

In Michigan we have been told to ignore the 50-79 requirment for all sub-varsity contests. We do however, only allow eligible numbers to catch passes.

Ed, what if the local official's association said to have leniency at the sub-varsity level when it comes to jersey numbers? We have had to show this in basketball as well, where we would have two players with the same number. Am I to screw the association and go by the book? Do I jeopardize myself with the possibility of the AD squealing to the assigner that I disregarded the association's stance?

IFF (If and only if) the local association ok'ed it and that should be announced to the members and preferably in writing since you are overriding the rule book.

Seems like we are debating something that almost never happens. After 27 seasons I remember maybe twice where duplicate numbers were an issue and then only that they had them. Even the poorest of teams seem to somehow gather uniquely numbered jerseys as normally jerseys are purchased as a set.

Actually the local association ok'd it because it was a "mandate" from the AD's as part of contracting with us (apparently).

As for the original post, I read the Redding Study Guide question wrong. While planning to discuss it with friends at pre-season study meeting tonight, I realized it is okay.

Chapter 3, Review test question #37: "If observed, an entering substitute with a number identical to a teammate who is on the field, should not be permitted to enter the game." The answer given is TRUE.

For some reason when I read "who is on the field", my head incorrectly registered, "who is being replaced." Dyslexics untie.

REPLY: If #88 was already in the game, and I saw another #88 coming in as a substitute, with all due respects to Mr. Demetriou, there is no way I would prevent his entering. How do I know he's not going in to replace the other #88 which is perfectly legal. I would never inject myself into a game like that.

I've had duplicate numbers once in 15 years. Public 3A school vs. small, private school. Early non-conference game.

The public school- home team, wearing navy blue, started entering some of their JV's, late in the game. #19 was the starting TE. He moved to Qb when the JV's started coming in to the game. The JV's were wearing an older set of navy blue jerseys, the trim discernably different. I watched as #19 handed off to......#19. I flagged it, my WH said "good pick-up".

I got chastised on one of these boards for throwing it. I guess I could have let it go. I just reacted when I saw the same numbers on the play.

I've had the situation happen both ways. I've had sub varsity games where the rag tag group can barely put matching uniforms together. Obviously if they had another number available they wouldn't need to duplicate. I've also had the situation where there are more than 100 kids on the team and they are duplicated that way.

To the coach that says it is causing him a problem. Your kids don't know their own plays let alone the opposing player's numbers. Give me a break.

And you don't know how many times I've thought about saying this line in some sub-varsity games where the coach tries to act like a high and mighty varsity coach. :rolleyes:

If you saw #88 enter the field and you know #88 is on the field why not do some preventative officiating and caution incoming #88?

Agree Ed, nothing wrong with turning around and saying "coach, you know you got two 88's out there, don't you"

Hopefully, someone (on the crew) would notice a substitute coming into the game wearing the same number as another player already in the game. If the new # 88 replaced the old # 88, you have no problem, if he didn't you might mention something to the new # 88, that there's already a # 88 in the game from his team, and one of them has to leave.

Whether, or not, you wanted to flag the offender, or choose to work with him and allow him, and his team to get their act together is really, entirely, up to you. Either option works as long as you're prepared to handle it the same for either team.

You can't change what might have happened in some former week, and have no control over next week, but what happens this week is pretty much up to you and your crew. That's as much control as you have over consistency.

I've had the situation before in sub-varsity games and we somehow manage to work it out for the benefit of the kids' participation.

Some of the schools here are really strapped for cash and... football is not a priority. As a matter of fact, the science teacher makes just as much as the football coach who doesn't get any perks. :)

Now, if it were hockey...