Touchdown Signals

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by ajmc

The NFHS Officials manual cautions;
"A. Only official(s) who actually see Touchdown should give TD signal.
B. Officials not observing TD do not mirror signal.

Well, Al, I think you have your answer right there in front of you. Seems you're the one who is once again mistaken and is now in full backpedal mode.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Well, Al, I think you have your answer right there in front of you. Seems you're the one who is once again mistaken and is now in full backpedal mode.

So what exactly are you suggesting Walt? When more than one official sees an action should he signal, even though the other official has signaled, or are you suggesting he should not "mirror" the call.

It seems you want to split hairs about words so fine, they tend to lose any relevant meaning. You ask a loaded question to try and sound like a guru, that provides no guidance or insight. If the covering official makes a call, that you also saw, and agree with, are you suggesting you not signal for fear of possibly being wrong?

That's not why your out there. If you see something you should respond to it. If an official differs with another official's call, rather than signal the opposite, going to the other official and discussing the call to try and detrmine who had the better view and agreeing on a call before signalling is a better approach.

It's not about being mistaken, Walt, or backpedaling, or changing your mind. It's far better to consider modifying or adjusting a position based on what's discussed here, than insist on doing something that can otherwise be done better. Doesn't mean you have to change, but there's no harm in considering a different approach.

Once you accept the reality and face the inevitable fact that you don't already know everything, it's a lot easier to focus on learning what you need to know to get better.

[Admiral]

I suppose I should have been more descriptive with my question. It isn't about mirroring, although it is a good discussion. Last season, I had a goal line play. Team A runs up the gut into a pile. U had the ball in, I thought it was in, but was looking at the blocking - not the ball position. BJ was on end line, and couldn't see the action. I checked both wings - HL was crashing in with a spot, LJ straddling the goal line. HL did not have a clear view of the ball once the runner hit the line, but saw his knee touch. LJ had his view completely obstructed. U relayed he had the ball in before the knee touched, but neither wing would signal. In a situation like this, is it acceptable for U to signal? It turns out that A fumbled into the end zone on the next play and B recovered.

[Mike L]

The U should be relaying to the HL he had the ball in before the knee touch. The HL, realizing he did have the knee down but had no idea where the ball was when it happened, should accept the U's call, go up with TD and thank the U for being there for him to help with the call. (Unless of course the HL feels where the knee down happened makes it impossible for the ball to be in since you really don't say at what yd line he had the knee).
The U going up with the signal just looks like cr@p.
The LJ should not be straddling the goal line unless he has it in.

[jjrye22]

Originally Posted by Mike L

The LJ should not be straddling the goal line unless he has it in.

Where should the LJ be on a short play close to the goal line if not at the pylon straddling the GL?
Our local mechanics has both LM and LJ have responsibility for the GL if the ball is inside the 10, and release directly to the GL if the ball is snapped inside the 5.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by jjrye22

Where should the LJ be on a short play close to the goal line if not at the pylon straddling the GL?
Our local mechanics has both LM and LJ have responsibility for the GL if the ball is inside the 10, and release directly to the GL if the ball is snapped inside the 5.

From the 5 and in (or from wherever your assoc wants it), the LJ should move to the goal line at the snap. Once the play is dead, staying on the goal line as he comes in gives the impression he has the ball in. If coming in with no idea where the ball is, he should be slightly in the field. He can then rule down before in with no complaints or can simply step into the "straddle" spot and signal TD. It's a perception thing. Watch any of the upper level guys and you'll see they never come in on the goal line unless it's to signal TD. The OP'er said his LJ was straddling the line after the play with no idea where the ball was. He shouldn't be there.

[SNG10]

Originally Posted by Mike L

From the 5 and in (or from wherever your assoc wants it), the LJ should move to the goal line at the snap. Once the play is dead, staying on the goal line as he comes in gives the impression he has the ball in. If coming in with no idea where the ball is, he should be slightly in the field. He can then rule down before in with no complaints or can simply step into the "straddle" spot and signal TD. It's a perception thing. Watch any of the upper level guys and you'll see they never come in on the goal line unless it's to signal TD. The OP'er said his LJ was straddling the line after the play with no idea where the ball was. He shouldn't be there.

Thanks for that tip, Mike.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by jjrye22

Where should the LJ be on a short play close to the goal line if not at the pylon straddling the GL?
Our local mechanics has both LM and LJ have responsibility for the GL if the ball is inside the 10, and release directly to the GL if the ball is snapped inside the 5.

That is our mechanic, too. They should be about 3 yds back from the pylon if the ball is coming their way. The main thing is get to the goal line. You can always work your way back but the goal line is the most important line on the field and someone must be there whenever it is threatened and this includes reverse GL plays because the R won't have the angle on possible safeties.

Some crews will have the wings take the GL when the ball is snapped inside the 15, but that may also change depending on the game situation, too.

[jjrye22]

I see know what Mike was saying from his clarification, and I agree - just didn't understand him in the original post.

A very good point Mike.

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by Forksref

That is our mechanic, too. They should be about 3 yds back from the pylon if the ball is coming their way. The main thing is get to the goal line. You can always work your way back but the goal line is the most important line on the field and someone must be there whenever it is threatened and this includes reverse GL plays because the R won't have the angle on possible safeties.

Some crews will have the wings take the GL when the ball is snapped inside the 15, but that may also change depending on the game situation, too.

Another tip is to move the goal line sign (the orange pyramid marker) back farther away as you check the field before the game. They often put them too close to the pylon and you can trip over them as you're trying to get a good postion for a play at the pylon. Make sure you have plenty of room to work - you're not going to look too sharp if, as you're backing into position you tumble over one of those and end up making the call while seated.

[Welpe]

No, I do not think an Umpire signaling is appropriate in this situation. A quick conference might've sorted that one out though.

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by Admiral

I suppose I should have been more descriptive with my question. It isn't about mirroring, although it is a good discussion. Last season, I had a goal line play. Team A runs up the gut into a pile. U had the ball in, I thought it was in, but was looking at the blocking - not the ball position. BJ was on end line, and couldn't see the action. I checked both wings - HL was crashing in with a spot, LJ straddling the goal line. HL did not have a clear view of the ball once the runner hit the line, but saw his knee touch. LJ had his view completely obstructed. U relayed he had the ball in before the knee touched, but neither wing would signal. In a situation like this, is it acceptable for U to signal? It turns out that A fumbled into the end zone on the next play and B recovered.

I would say "no" because this play was the HL's call. He had the knee down. The U offered his opinion that the ball was in before the knee was down, but obviously the HL didn't agree. He has to make the call and he did - no TD, down at the 1 or wherever.

You describe it as "neither wing would signal", but that's just a backhanded way of saying the HL ruled he was down at the 1. He made a decision and it was his to make so the U should not try and overrule him.

I had this play once as an U. I swear the guy fumbled at the one, but the wing ruled TD so that's what it was. B recovered in the endzone on that play too, but the wing had the proper position so you have to trust his judgment.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Admiral

I suppose I should have been more descriptive with my question. It isn't about mirroring, although it is a good discussion. Last season, I had a goal line play. Team A runs up the gut into a pile. U had the ball in, I thought it was in, but was looking at the blocking - not the ball position. BJ was on end line, and couldn't see the action. I checked both wings - HL was crashing in with a spot, LJ straddling the goal line. HL did not have a clear view of the ball once the runner hit the line, but saw his knee touch. LJ had his view completely obstructed. U relayed he had the ball in before the knee touched, but neither wing would signal. In a situation like this, is it acceptable for U to signal? It turns out that A fumbled into the end zone on the next play and B recovered.

I'd like to see the wings and U all get to the ball and discuss what they saw. If the ball is in the end zone and nobody saw the runner down before crossing the GL it's a TD.