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-   -   Translation issues (https://forum.officiating.com/football/51799-translation-issues.html)

With_Two_Flakes Mon Feb 23, 2009 09:11am
Quote:
Does that really means that on an onside kick try, Team A players have to wait for the ball to cross the line so they can block Team B and attempt a recovery of the kick?
Yes it really does mean that!!

Of course if Team B touch it before 10yds then Team A can recover and also can now legally block

It was a Rule change made in the early 1990's(??) due to one College teams onside kick play. I believe it was Hawaii(??) who had an onside kick play where the kicker would kick the ball and as it bobbled forward the other 10 Team A guys would surround it blocking Team B out of the way until it had gone 10yds when the kicker would fall on it. Usually only a handful of Team B players up front so it was 10 against 2 or 3 and the play was nearly always succesful. This Rule change made that tactic illegal. I'm sure I recall a BigTen official coming over to the UK to our Annual British Clinic back then and explaining the reasoning behind this Rule change.

I actually had this foul happen to my crew yesterday over here in the UK in a British College game and today I read a forum post about it, how wierd is that?
Definitely a Twilight Zone moment ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y )


Judging by the Rules references that Forksref is giving, he is looking at the Fed rulebook, so I guess he missed that dvasques is talking about NCAA Rules.

Ref Ump Welsch Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 582091)
One thing I'd have to ask is what dvasques needs to do here. Is your job to translate the NCAA football rule book so you can present it as, "Here is the authentic current NCAA football rule book translated into Portugese."? Or are you operating as a "rules committee of 1", and just doing your own research? That is, do you have to "sell" the product to someone as, "Here is what has been formulated and tested by a large organiz'n for football?" Because if not, if you have nobody to answer to, why not just think it thru (preferably, but not necessarily, in consultation with others) and decide what makes sense for you, without regard to exactly what the existing rule book says?

For 80 years in American football, team B/R has been given opportunity to catch the free kicked ball, so that opp'ty is not to be interfered with. The different codes have slightly different criteria as to when that opportunity exists. In Canadian football there is no such opp'ty, but for over 50 years the receiving team but not the kicking team at a kickoff has been allowed to block before possession of the ball is gained. Why not just use that knowledge and formulate your own criteria?

Robert in the Bronx
Not to criticize this remark Robert, but have you ever been involved in a process where you had to translate something from English to another language? There are many considerations when one wants to maintain the dynamic equivalency from the source language once it's translated into the target language. Some rules in football would require lots of expansion if I were to translate it into American Sign Language, just to maintain that dynamic equivalency.

Robert Goodman Mon Feb 23, 2009 04:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch (Post 582335)
Not to criticize this remark Robert, but have you ever been involved in a process where you had to translate something from English to another language? There are many considerations when one wants to maintain the dynamic equivalency from the source language once it's translated into the target language. Some rules in football would require lots of expansion if I were to translate it into American Sign Language, just to maintain that dynamic equivalency.
OK, but I hope you understand that none of that has anything to do with what I was asking dvasques.

dvasques Mon Feb 23, 2009 05:00pm
And now, a doubt on Rule 7
 
NCAA book, Rule 7-3-4 says:

No eligible offensive receiver who goes out of bounds during a down shall touch a legal forward pass in the field of play or end zones or while airborne until it has been touched by an oponent or official

And Rule 7-3-5 says:

When a Team B player or an official touches a legal forward pass, all players become eligible


Now, I'm coming from NFL rules and, unless I'm mistaken, a Team A eligible player who's gone out of bounds would regain his eligibility once either an official, Team B player or another Team A eligible player touched the ball.

Not like this in the NCAA?

dvasques Mon Feb 23, 2009 05:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 582509)
OK, but I hope you understand that none of that has anything to do with what I was asking dvasques.
Just for the record, what I'm trying to do here in Brasil is implement the rules that are used by IFAF. I've been told by their Head of Officiating that their rules is the NCAA with a few changes. So the first thing I'm doing is translating the NCAA rules first. Then I'll make the IFAF changes.
And later, we will make some more changes for our beach football (that has no pads and no drawns line on the ground). TXMike knows what I'm talking about...

And thanks everyone for the responses. Really helpfull.

Robert Goodman Mon Feb 23, 2009 05:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvasques (Post 582507)
Just for the record, what I'm trying to do here in Brasil is implement the rules that are used by IFAF. I've been told by their Head of Officiating that their rules is the NCAA with a few changes. So the first thing I'm doing is translating the NCAA rules first. Then I'll make the IFAF changes.
Why not obtain IFAF's rules in some language and translate that? Or does IFAF not have their own complete written set of rules in any language, just incorporating NCAA by reference?

Quote:
And later, we will make some more changes for our beach football (that has no pads and no drawns line on the ground).
Well, certainly one of the lines does not need to be drawn...but it keeps moving!

Robert in the Bronx

dvasques Mon Feb 23, 2009 05:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 582518)
Why not obtain IFAF's rules in some language and translate that? Or does IFAF not have their own complete written set of rules in any language, just incorporating NCAA by reference?


Well, certainly one of the lines does not need to be drawn...but it keeps moving!

Robert in the Bronx
I've asked for the IFAF book but there is none yet. So they use NCAA incorporated by reference.

Robert, it is a lot more complicated then you think to have a scrimmage line marked down at beach games here...

Theisey Mon Feb 23, 2009 05:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvasques (Post 582514)
NCAA book, Rule 7-3-4 says:
No eligible offensive receiver who goes out of bounds during a down shall touch a legal forward pass in the field of play or end zones or while airborne until it has been touched by an opponent or official

And Rule 7-3-5 says:
When a Team B player or an official touches a legal forward pass, all players become eligible

Now, I'm coming from NFL rules and, unless I'm mistaken, a Team A eligible player who's gone out of bounds would regain his eligibility once either an official, Team B player or another Team A eligible player touched the ball.

Not like this in the NCAA?
You have it right.. that team-A player can now touch the ball.

dvasques Mon Feb 23, 2009 05:46pm
yes, but another Team A eligible player touching the ball does not make every player eligible, right?

With_Two_Flakes Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:17pm
Correct. It has to be a Team B player or an official.

We are currently choosing our guys from the UK for the IFAF Pool (I'm on the Selection Committee) and notice that Brazil is on the list in the Email about it. So I can understand that you have an impetus to get changed over to NCAA Rules.
Don't know the Head of IFAF Officiating myself, but I know his Assistants well. I've worked in EFAF with Einar and I've worked three games with Yoshiki who was at World Cup 99 in Sicily with me.

dvasques Tue Feb 24, 2009 02:25am
I thought Einar was the heard of officiating for IFAF...

We have two names to throw into IFAF pool and mine is one of them. But I have no idea of what's going to happen after that. Thing is, down in south america there's not many games we could send someone form brazil to officiate and therefore, it's hard to get the experience outside the counrty.

But we'll keep working. I was already on the process of this translation before the email about the IFAF pool but surely it has sped up the process for me

Robert Goodman Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvasques (Post 582522)
Robert, it is a lot more complicated then you think to have a scrimmage line marked down at beach games here...
But I meant one of the boundaries is easy to call because you see the splash when the player steps beyond it.

dvasques Wed Feb 25, 2009 01:34am
oh yes.. but still, sometimes it's hard to define if the boudaries are straight or if they've moved a little...
It's not easy to have a real game on the sand...

jjrye22 Wed Feb 25, 2009 04:13am
Hi dvasques

Can these people not get you a current Portugese translation? It says it is run by the Spanish association, but to play with Portugese teams, you would think they would have it also translated.

LNFA 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe ot would save you a lot of work... Or the Spanish one (not knowing the languages, I don't know how different they are).

As for your questions:
I agree, A can only block after they are elligible to touch the ball, Two_Flakes summed it up nicely.
I agree, the A player OOB is only made elligible after it touches a B player or official. Touched by an A player does not change the status.


Good luck!

kfo9494 Thu Feb 26, 2009 09:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 582155)
Just for the record, there does not appear to be any restriction againsts K blocking R before a grounded free kick has traveled past R's free kick line under the NFHS code.

If any free kick is touched by K, before it travels past the R free kick line, it is "first touching" and R will have the option to select possession at that point. (unless R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul, or if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down. NF: 6.1.6)
So-- if R get blocked into the ball, by K, before it goes 10 yards (in NFHS) what is the correct call?


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