Quick one.... Dead ball foul and untimed down
 

Got this one thrown at me - searched the forum but couldn't find anything similar.

We'll go with NCAA, although I'm interested if FED is different.

4th quarter. Team A punts. On the return, A facemasks B. Clock runs out on the down. After the down, there USC on each team.

Do we offest the USC, enforce facemask, and play an untimed down?

I will give you the Fed answer since I don't know the NCAA one (though I imagine it is the same). ;)

You enforce the facemask first since it is a live ball foul (5 or 15 yards from the end of the run). After that, march off each USC in the order that the fouls were committed (this is important in case the penalty for one of the USC fouls ends up being half the distance to the goal), set the chains and play an untimed down for the live ball foul.

From an NFHS perspective it would seem that the facemask foul by the defense, if acepted, would require an untimed down. As Dead Ball fouls do not "offset" under the NFHS code, they would be applied in the order of occurrence, and if that could not be determined, they would be enforced so that the yardage portion of the penalties cancelled each other out.

There's always the caution about situations where "half the distance" considerations come into play, in which case, unless there was a really obvious separation between the two fouls, the sequence would be assessed so that the yardage portions of the penalties cancelled each other out.

The Receiving team would get an untimed down, 15 yards in advance of the end of the kickoff return.

Sounds good to me. I assume time for the 4th quarter ran out during the play.

REPLY: Unless I'm mistaken, the two USCs will offset in NCAA since the second one occurred before the first one was 'completed.' But there will be an untimed down for the face mask foul.

If the penalty for the live ball foul is declined, is there still an untimed down in either code?

Under any circumstance, the USC fouls offset. See 10.1.5. Technically, B has the option to accept or decline the penalty, and if they decline, the game is over or we go to OT. If they accept, the penalty is enforced and an untimed down is played.

From a practical standpoint, unless Team B is down by 8 or less to Team A (or the game is tied), the penalty will be declined and the game will be over.

Not in NF. There must be an accepted penalty to extend the period. There are a few exceptions such as dead ball fouls, etc.

A dead ball foul will never offset a live ball foul. Only live ball fouls will offset. (NFHS)

Rule 10-1-5 refers to half the distance to the goal. Rule 10-2-5 states, "A dead ball foul is not coupled with a live-ball foul or another dead-ball foul to create a double or multiple foul." Case Book 10.2.5 Situation B addresses this situation (using fighting instead of USC, but it still applies) where Team A starts the fight, where Team B starts the fight, and where no one knows who started the fight. If both players simultaneously yelled "%*#@ you!" to each other, there would be no penalty yardage assessed.

Even if Team B is down by more than 8, they usually take the penalty. Every team I've seen down late in a game usually tries to score. Maybe they are being shutout. Maybe they want the score to seem better than it was.

Of course, if the accepted penalty only gives Team B the ball on their own 15 or so, they may decline it. Not many teams would bother attempting for a meaningless 85-yard touchdown. But if the ball is at the A 40 or closer...

Bully, I'm almost positive that Aggie is referring to NCAA rules.

From a practical standpoint, under the NF code, the key consideration may well be who is ahead at the time this situation developed. If the game ended with USC folus by both teams, the last thing you want to do is extend the game for an untimed down, and give both teams one last shot at each other.

If the Receiving team was ahead, the smart thing to do is persuade them to decline the facemask penalty, thus ending the game. The USC actions happened after the game has ended and whatever disciplinary action might be taken against each player is best left to their respective coaches.

If the Receivers are behind, by more than 7 points, you still might try and persuade them that the smart thing to do is accept the defeat, decline the penalty and end the contest rather than risk an unnecessary untimed down where emotions may be higher due to the USC situations.

If necessary you may have to explain, to an emptional or excited coach, that having the "right" to an untimed down, when young athletes emotions may be at their highest, doesn't mean insisting on an unnecessary "extra" down is the "right" decision and any consequences of something bad happening during that unnecessary down will land directly at his feet.

If the Receivers are behind by less than 7 points, they will likely want the facemask penalty which will provide them with an untimed down, no matter where the subsequent spot may be. Under the NF code, the USC fouls do not "offset", but their actual enforcement can produce the same result. Unless these fouls were completely separate incidences, they should be applied so the ending spot is the same as the starting spot.

Whether you choose to actually step off the yardage, returning to where you started, is your freference. If half the distance is a factor, if at all possible go the long way first, so you'll wind up as close as possible to the starting point. You might remind both teams, depending on how high the emotions actually are, that the consquences for anything stupid done during the down will carry over to the next game, and possibly beyond.

Wrong book. I was referring to the NCAA book. The original poster said he wanted the NCAA interp.

Thanks ya'll - appreciate it.

Whoops! Completely missed that part of the post. Sorry about that.