The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Football
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 6 votes, 1.67 average. Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 08:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: N.D.
Posts: 1,829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike L View Post
The guys up in NCAA seem to be able to figure it out. Maybe us HS guys are just too stupid in your book.
So every time a team has a back at least 7 yds from the line of scrimmage it's obvious that it's a kicking situation? Or, do we have to look at down and distance...or...time of the game...or... time left in the half...or... if they have passed in this situation earlier in the game...or...if they have used the fake punt before...or...
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 10:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forksref View Post
So every time a team has a back at least 7 yds from the line of scrimmage it's obvious that it's a kicking situation? Or, do we have to look at down and distance...or...time of the game...or... time left in the half...or... if they have passed in this situation earlier in the game...or...if they have used the fake punt before...or...
Is it just me? I'm always aware of all of those things when I'm on the field.
__________________
Tom
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 11:27am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
Is it just me? I'm always aware of all of those things when I'm on the field.
It's not just you. It's just some people insist on making a simple observation impossible to comprehend.
__________________
Indecision may or may not be my problem
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 11:28am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Randolph, NJ
Posts: 1,936
Send a message via Yahoo to waltjp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forksref View Post
So every time a team has a back at least 7 yds from the line of scrimmage it's obvious that it's a kicking situation? Or, do we have to look at down and distance...or...time of the game...or... time left in the half...or... if they have passed in this situation earlier in the game...or...if they have used the fake punt before...or...
So in your games you're often caught off-guard when the holder places the block on the ground an kneels next to it, or when the punter lines up 15 yards deep as if in punt formation? I don't ever remember a situation where a team lined up as if to kick and I thought to myself, "What are they doing?"

Obvious is obvious, and it's obvious some guys just like to argue for the sake of arguing.
__________________
I got a fever! And the only prescription.. is more cowbell!
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 12:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,915
OK, you want to leave the judgement in this call? At least take it out of the officials' heads. Call it a scrimmage kick formation based on whether team B has someone deep to receive. Won't work for all scrimmage kick situations, of course, as when a short field goal is anticipated, but then you could say the numbering exception isn't needed when team A doesn't have much ground to cover afer the kick.

How about it? Leave it to team B instead of team A? You drop a deep receiver back, you allow the other team the numbering exception.

The rule would have to tolerate situations where team B shifted to draw an illegal formation foul on A, by giving team A a pass in such situations. You'd have to allow a late substitution by A when B showed their scrimmage kick formation, so they could get their eligible numbers in, and then they'd still be allowed if B shifted out of it before play began or was prevented. So there'd be a bit of a special substitution procedure.

Robert
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 01:25pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 278
That wouldn't work. Sometimes B won't drop anyone back in an all out attempt to block the kick. Hey wait a minute, that would mean it's obvious that A is going to kick.
__________________
Tom
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 01:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
That wouldn't work. Sometimes B won't drop anyone back in an all out attempt to block the kick. Hey wait a minute, that would mean it's obvious that A is going to kick.
that's good stuff !!
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 02:05pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf View Post
that's good stuff !!
I'm here until Thursday, try the veal!
__________________
Tom
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 02:09pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 566
Maybe all this worrying by some over officials ability to grasp a simple concept of "obvious" can be relieved if the rule is changed to read that the numbering exception is allowed in a SKC when a kick may be obvious "or a legal kick does occur". Then all this concern about SK's in those extremely rare situations that we might all see 2 or 3 times in our careers will not be penalized because a kick actually happened. I would think it would be obvious that no flag would be dropped if a kick was made no matter what, but apparently some have to have everything friggin spelled out to them.
__________________
Indecision may or may not be my problem
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 02:07pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 46
I know that the Illinois rep to the NF rules comm.will request that the wording on the exception read that it applies only on 4th down.

I officiated two varsity games this year where the A-11 was attempted for most of the game. To me, it reminded me of when I played HS football and you were eligible only by position---numbering was not a part of the rules then. Then football was "modernize" to follow the college numbering rules on eligibility. When I played, the defense had to understand the positioning and had to adapt on every play and the offense had to be clearly in an eligible position not this tight positioning, close to the LOS by backs that we see now. But, football was modernize, eligible numbering was brought in and I assume the committee will feel there should be no going back by taking advantage of an exception that was really brought in to eliminate the need to change jerseys or put on aprons with ineligible numbers. Remember when players used to slip on aprons over their regular jerseys so they could go in in place of a big heavy for punt coverage? That is why the exception was put in.
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 04:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,915
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
That wouldn't work. Sometimes B won't drop anyone back in an all out attempt to block the kick. Hey wait a minute, that would mean it's obvious that A is going to kick.
If they're not dropping anyone back, then team A doesn't need the speedy guys in coverage, hence no numbering exception. What's wrong with that?
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 07:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
If they're not dropping anyone back, then team A doesn't need the speedy guys in coverage, hence no numbering exception. What's wrong with that?
2 things. Who is long snapping and A is going to want to be the first on the ball to down it as deeply down the field as possible.
__________________
Tom
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 11:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,915
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
2 things. Who is long snapping and A is going to want to be the first on the ball to down it as deeply down the field as possible.
If they line up at least one end numbered 50-79, the long snapper can have an eligible number even without the exception. So they sacrifice an eligible receiver; that doesn't seem to be a problem for you guys who just know that they're not going to pass.

And as far as kick coverage goes when the defense is rushing everybody, even the slow players will beat the defense peeling back if they don't block the kick. As soon as you lose your block, you release. They're still running one way while you're running the other.

Robert
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 10:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
If they're not dropping anyone back, then team A doesn't need the speedy guys in coverage, hence no numbering exception. What's wrong with that?
2 reasons have already been given, but how can what B does determine if A is fouling or not?

A sends substitutes on 4th down to punt. B doesn't "drop anyone back" to cause A to foul.

B thinks that A may fake the punt so they stay in their normal defense and doesn't "drop anyone back". Is that a foul?

What constitutes "dropping back"?

You have to realize that when it is everyone against you (and that everyone includes the NCAA) that maybe you are wrong. This is easy to officiate. Teams never punt on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down. If a team is going to kick a field goal then a holder will be kneeling on the ground. No one ever drop kicks. Everyone knows when it is a kicking situation. Don't pretend that you can't determine if the team is going to attempt a kick or not.
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 11:04pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,915
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDUB View Post
2 reasons have already been given, but how can what B does determine if A is fouling or not?

A sends substitutes on 4th down to punt. B doesn't "drop anyone back" to cause A to foul.

B thinks that A may fake the punt so they stay in their normal defense and doesn't "drop anyone back". Is that a foul?
Then team A would not have followed the special substitutionprocedure provided for these cases, and would not have subbed in players 1-49 & 80-99, so no foul.

Quote:
What constitutes "dropping back"?
It would be an arbitrary distance. I suggest 25 yards because there's a defense that plays a 20 yard deep safety.

Quote:
You have to realize that when it is everyone against you (and that everyone includes the NCAA) that maybe you are wrong. This is easy to officiate. Teams never punt on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down.
That just means I've seen a lot more football than you.

BTW, I saw one HS game on TV in the NYC area where one team ran a good deal of its offense from a long punt formation, either shifting into it or coming out in it straight from the huddle. Sometimes they even punted from it, and not always on 4th down.

Quote:
If a team is going to kick a field goal then a holder will be kneeling on the ground.
So, you want to allow the numbering exception as long as one player is kneeling in position to take the snap? I'm sure A-11 would still work just fine. They have 2 players 7+ yards deep in position to take the snap.

Quote:
No one ever drop kicks.
I don't see how it would affect any of this if they did.

Robert
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Tags
fat lady is singing, hello kettle!, hyena love


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New 2009 BRD Questions SAump Baseball 18 Wed Dec 31, 2008 01:08am
2008 - 2009 Rules Interps Situation 6 mdray Basketball 4 Fri Oct 31, 2008 02:11pm
NFHS Rules Changes 2009 (Sort of) Tim C Baseball 29 Thu Jul 03, 2008 09:25am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:12pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1