Possible rules changes for 2009

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Mike L

The guys up in NCAA seem to be able to figure it out. Maybe us HS guys are just too stupid in your book.

So every time a team has a back at least 7 yds from the line of scrimmage it's obvious that it's a kicking situation? Or, do we have to look at down and distance...or...time of the game...or... time left in the half...or... if they have passed in this situation earlier in the game...or...if they have used the fake punt before...or...

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by Forksref

So every time a team has a back at least 7 yds from the line of scrimmage it's obvious that it's a kicking situation? Or, do we have to look at down and distance...or...time of the game...or... time left in the half...or... if they have passed in this situation earlier in the game...or...if they have used the fake punt before...or...

Is it just me? I'm always aware of all of those things when I'm on the field.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Is it just me? I'm always aware of all of those things when I'm on the field.

It's not just you. It's just some people insist on making a simple observation impossible to comprehend.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Forksref

So every time a team has a back at least 7 yds from the line of scrimmage it's obvious that it's a kicking situation? Or, do we have to look at down and distance...or...time of the game...or... time left in the half...or... if they have passed in this situation earlier in the game...or...if they have used the fake punt before...or...

So in your games you're often caught off-guard when the holder places the block on the ground an kneels next to it, or when the punter lines up 15 yards deep as if in punt formation? I don't ever remember a situation where a team lined up as if to kick and I thought to myself, "What are they doing?"

Obvious is obvious, and it's obvious some guys just like to argue for the sake of arguing.

[Robert Goodman]

OK, you want to leave the judgement in this call? At least take it out of the officials' heads. Call it a scrimmage kick formation based on whether team B has someone deep to receive. Won't work for all scrimmage kick situations, of course, as when a short field goal is anticipated, but then you could say the numbering exception isn't needed when team A doesn't have much ground to cover afer the kick.

How about it? Leave it to team B instead of team A? You drop a deep receiver back, you allow the other team the numbering exception.

The rule would have to tolerate situations where team B shifted to draw an illegal formation foul on A, by giving team A a pass in such situations. You'd have to allow a late substitution by A when B showed their scrimmage kick formation, so they could get their eligible numbers in, and then they'd still be allowed if B shifted out of it before play began or was prevented. So there'd be a bit of a special substitution procedure.

Robert

[daggo66]

That wouldn't work. Sometimes B won't drop anyone back in an all out attempt to block the kick. Hey wait a minute, that would mean it's obvious that A is going to kick.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by daggo66

That wouldn't work. Sometimes B won't drop anyone back in an all out attempt to block the kick. Hey wait a minute, that would mean it's obvious that A is going to kick.

that's good stuff !!

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by asdf

that's good stuff !!

I'm here until Thursday, try the veal!

[Mike L]

Maybe all this worrying by some over officials ability to grasp a simple concept of "obvious" can be relieved if the rule is changed to read that the numbering exception is allowed in a SKC when a kick may be obvious "or a legal kick does occur". Then all this concern about SK's in those extremely rare situations that we might all see 2 or 3 times in our careers will not be penalized because a kick actually happened. I would think it would be obvious that no flag would be dropped if a kick was made no matter what, but apparently some have to have everything friggin spelled out to them.

[Niner]

I know that the Illinois rep to the NF rules comm.will request that the wording on the exception read that it applies only on 4th down.

I officiated two varsity games this year where the A-11 was attempted for most of the game. To me, it reminded me of when I played HS football and you were eligible only by position---numbering was not a part of the rules then. Then football was "modernize" to follow the college numbering rules on eligibility. When I played, the defense had to understand the positioning and had to adapt on every play and the offense had to be clearly in an eligible position not this tight positioning, close to the LOS by backs that we see now. But, football was modernize, eligible numbering was brought in and I assume the committee will feel there should be no going back by taking advantage of an exception that was really brought in to eliminate the need to change jerseys or put on aprons with ineligible numbers. Remember when players used to slip on aprons over their regular jerseys so they could go in in place of a big heavy for punt coverage? That is why the exception was put in.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by daggo66

That wouldn't work. Sometimes B won't drop anyone back in an all out attempt to block the kick. Hey wait a minute, that would mean it's obvious that A is going to kick.

If they're not dropping anyone back, then team A doesn't need the speedy guys in coverage, hence no numbering exception. What's wrong with that?

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

If they're not dropping anyone back, then team A doesn't need the speedy guys in coverage, hence no numbering exception. What's wrong with that?

2 things. Who is long snapping and A is going to want to be the first on the ball to down it as deeply down the field as possible.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by daggo66

2 things. Who is long snapping and A is going to want to be the first on the ball to down it as deeply down the field as possible.

If they line up at least one end numbered 50-79, the long snapper can have an eligible number even without the exception. So they sacrifice an eligible receiver; that doesn't seem to be a problem for you guys who just know that they're not going to pass.

And as far as kick coverage goes when the defense is rushing everybody, even the slow players will beat the defense peeling back if they don't block the kick. As soon as you lose your block, you release. They're still running one way while you're running the other.

Robert

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

If they're not dropping anyone back, then team A doesn't need the speedy guys in coverage, hence no numbering exception. What's wrong with that?

2 reasons have already been given, but how can what B does determine if A is fouling or not?

A sends substitutes on 4th down to punt. B doesn't "drop anyone back" to cause A to foul.

B thinks that A may fake the punt so they stay in their normal defense and doesn't "drop anyone back". Is that a foul?

What constitutes "dropping back"?

You have to realize that when it is everyone against you (and that everyone includes the NCAA) that maybe you are wrong. This is easy to officiate. Teams never punt on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down. If a team is going to kick a field goal then a holder will be kneeling on the ground. No one ever drop kicks. Everyone knows when it is a kicking situation. Don't pretend that you can't determine if the team is going to attempt a kick or not.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by LDUB

2 reasons have already been given, but how can what B does determine if A is fouling or not?

A sends substitutes on 4th down to punt. B doesn't "drop anyone back" to cause A to foul.

B thinks that A may fake the punt so they stay in their normal defense and doesn't "drop anyone back". Is that a foul?

Then team A would not have followed the special substitutionprocedure provided for these cases, and would not have subbed in players 1-49 & 80-99, so no foul.

What constitutes "dropping back"?

It would be an arbitrary distance. I suggest 25 yards because there's a defense that plays a 20 yard deep safety.

You have to realize that when it is everyone against you (and that everyone includes the NCAA) that maybe you are wrong. This is easy to officiate. Teams never punt on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down.

That just means I've seen a lot more football than you.

BTW, I saw one HS game on TV in the NYC area where one team ran a good deal of its offense from a long punt formation, either shifting into it or coming out in it straight from the huddle. Sometimes they even punted from it, and not always on 4th down.

If a team is going to kick a field goal then a holder will be kneeling on the ground.

So, you want to allow the numbering exception as long as one player is kneeling in position to take the snap? I'm sure A-11 would still work just fine. They have 2 players 7+ yards deep in position to take the snap.

No one ever drop kicks.

I don't see how it would affect any of this if they did.

Robert