Mich St/ Mich
 

Can anyone who knows NCAA rule explain the 1st Mich TD? The receiver's first contact was with the pylon which I thought would be OB. We were in an adult beverage establishment for our postgame and had no sound. It appeared that Witovet( I think) said it was a TD because he hit the pylon. I know that if the ball hits the pylon, it's a TD as it is on the GL, but this explaination seemed puzzling.

I'm pretty sure HS rules are different.

In ALL three rule books, FED, NCAA and NFL, the pylons are considered part of the goal line.

Bob

I did not see the play so I need some clarification. What exactly contacted the pylon? The ball? A part of the player's body?

This could be a TD based on a lot of things. It could be just an out of bounds play based on what touches the pylon.

The pylon is considered out of bounds, but the pylon is also in the end zone (if placed properly).

Peace

His foot landed on the pylon and no other part of his body touched anything inbounds.

Then that is an incomplete pass. The only thing that could make that a completed pass is if they were dragged out of bounds while airborne on the pass. At least that was the NCAA Rule. I am not sure that changed.

Peace

No, the pylon is an object which marks the intersection of the goal line and sideline. It is not part of the goal line. What happens when a player or ball touches the pylon depends on the situation.

The pylon is considered out of bounds and in the end zone. I cannot think of a time that you hit the pylon (on the goal line) where you are not considered in the end zone. The issue is whether there is a touchdown, touchback or safety or down short of the end zone based on what touches the pylon.

Peace

That is the point. To say that the pylon is part of the goal line is confusing. The goal line is painted on the field and is in bounds. The pylon is out of bounds.

interesting
 

It was called no catch on the field. Other than hitting the pylon, nothing came down in bounds. I was rooting for Michigan and I couldnt believe it was being reviewed because it wasn't close. I was stunned by the overturn.

The sideline reporter asked MSU's coach at halftime what the explaination was from the referee and the coach said all the R told him was to please remember no official on the field called it a TD and no one on the field was responsible for that ruling. If that's true, it's quite and indictment.

That's why I asked the question. I too was stunned at the reversal.

I thought instant replay was instituted to correct missed calls, not change correct calls.

Wonder what the conversation between the Referee and the Replay booth was like on that one?

Only video I have found so far (might want to mute the volume)

YouTube - MSU vs Michigan (2008 rivalry!!) 35-21 MSU

Looked like his left toe tapped in but his right foot was already down OOB. Interesting overturn and more interesting explanation.

That would be tough to be a WH and have your reputation affected by the decision of a hidden replay official.

At least in the NFL the WH gets to make his own decision.

We work NCAA Rules here in the UK.

My understanding is that,

If a runner with possession of the ball dives for the pylon and the ball hits the pylon - TD. The pylon is in the EZ and OOB. I guess the philosophy is that the ball breaks the plane of the GL before being OOB.

If a player gets the ball while he is airborne, then the catch is not complete until he comes down inbounds (and maintains possession of the ball). If the player comes down and first contact is with the pylon, then he is OOB. I guess the philosophy difference from the running play example is that the airborne receiver does not have possession when he breaks the plane.

I've watched the (poor quality YouTube) film and the FJ was in a good position to rule on it, and I think he got it right. Not sure what rationale the Reply booth might have had to overrule the FJ. Perhaps the BigTen will make a statement subsequently.

Did not take long. From the Detroit Free Press:

Big Ten commish calls pylon ruling 'not acceptable'; punishment possible
By SHANNON SHELTON • FREE PRESS SPORTS WRITER • October 26, 2008


PARK RIDGE, Ill. — Big Ten commissioner Jim Delany said the decision by a replay official to award Michigan’s Brandon Minor with a touchdown against Michigan State on Saturday, overruling the on-field referee’s call, was “not acceptable.”


“The people in the replay booth made a mistake,” Delany said while meeting with reporters at the conference’s basketball media day Sunday. “It wasn’t a mistake of judgment; it was a mistake of an application of the rule. They applied the wrong rule and they applied it improperly.”

Minor leaped to make a 19-yard catch from Steven Threet and landed out of bounds, causing the on-field referee to rule the play incomplete. The replay official overturned the call, saying Minor’s foot hit the pylon. According to NCAA rules, however, an airborne player that touches a pylon is considered out of bounds.

The touchdown tied the game at 7-7 in the first quarter, but ultimately didn’t affect the game’s outcome. MSU won, 35-21, at Michigan Stadium.

“I expect more from them than that,” Delany said. “You can understand a mistake of judgment on the field, and you can even understand possibly not getting the standard right because we want indisputable video evidence that a play is wrong. But to apply the wrong rule to a situation is not acceptable to me.”

Delany said disciplinary action was possible.

“I haven’t decided yet, but we may,” he said. “I doubt if we do anything publicly, but there has to be an understanding that we expect on the field and in the booth 100% knowledge of the rules, applying the right rule to the right situation. You might make a mistake in terms of judgment, but I expect our officials to know the rules and apply the right rule to the right situation. We didn’t do that, and that’s not acceptable.”

So the replay official cannot be overruled on a rules' interpretation by the 7 officials on the field? Kudos to the Referee in this game for letting everyone know what the guys on the field thought.

It is one thing to slow down the play and look for feet in bounds, etc.
It is quite another to blow a rule.

Just from a fan's perspective lurking over here from baseball...

The college replay system is seriously whack. They review the most useless things most of the time, it slows the game down too much, and by not allowing your white hat to make his own decision you run into crap like this.

If R really knew what the IR guy saw, and knew the rule he was applying was wrong, would anybody have a problem if he went against the IR and made the call he knew was right? He must of known it was dead wrong if he admitted it to HC...

Peace

The Referee is not looking at the video. There is no way this could be overturned by the Referee. This is why the replay official was commented on, not the officials on the field.

Also I like replay. Every play is reviewed and they stop the plays that are close. You are not going to make every call right, but you make enough of these plays right. That is fine with me.

Peace

The rules say touchdown
 

NCAA Rules

They define the 2 pylons at the goal line as in the end zone. Why, who knows.

End Zones
ARTICLE 3. The end zones are the 10-yard areas at both ends of the field
between the end lines and the goal lines. The goal lines and goal line pylons
are in the end zone, and a team’s end zone is the one it is defending (A.R.
8-5-1-X and A.R. 8-6-1-I).


There is an exception for the end zone in determining if a pass is completed.
Notice a player does not need to be inbounds to determine a completed pass in the end zone which from the replay he appeared to be in the end zone.
There appear to be different rules for a pass caught in the end zone.

Completed Pass
ARTICLE 6. Any forward pass is completed when caught by a player of the
passing team who is inbounds, and the ball continues in play unless completed
in the opponent’s end zone or the pass has been caught simultaneously
by opposing players. If a forward pass is caught simultaneously by opposing
players inbounds, the ball becomes dead and belongs to the passing team (Rule
2-2-7) (A.R. 2-2-7-III and A.R. 7-3-6-I-IX).

He was in the end zone when his forward progress was stopped with frim control of the ball.
I don't see anywhere it says for a pass caught in the end zone a player has to come down in bounds only that his progress has to be stopped in the end zone. Reminder they have defined that the "goal line pylons are in the end zone". These are special magical pylons with a power of their own. In a bowl game between navy and utah the ncaa made a statement that the pylons are both in the end zone and out of bounds. (huh !!!).

"The ball was fumbled forward and hit the pylon. The pylon is out of bounds and also in the end zone," read an official statement from the officiating crew, citing Rule 8, Section 6, Article 1, Item 1 in the NCAA college football rule book. "There was a mistake made. It should have been ruled a touchback and the ball should have been placed at the 20-yard line."


Incompleted Pass
ARTICLE 7. a. Any forward pass is incomplete if the ball is out of bounds by
rule or if it touches the ground when not firmly controlled by a player. It also is
incomplete when a player leaves his feet and receives the pass but first lands on
or outside a boundary line, unless his progress has been stopped in the field of
play or end zone (Rule 4-1-3-p) (A.R. 2-2-7-III and A.R. 7-3-7-I).


This rule stopped his progress after it was a complete pass by rule. Since he was in the end zone with clear possession of the ball it should be a touchdown since his progress had the ball in the end zone.
He was both out of bounds and in the end zone.

ARTICLE 1. a. A player or an airborne player is out of bounds when any
part of his person touches anything, other than another player or game
official, on or outside a boundary line (A.R. 4-2-1-I and II).
b. A player or an airborne player who touches a pylon is out of bounds.

before I start into this with you...do you officiate under NCAA rules or are you just pulling out a bunch of language that you are trying to use (incorrectly) to "prove" a point?

No not an official just wondering. Just like all the people pulling one line from the rule book claiming it is the only thing under consideration. I'm no different and don't expect much from MSU fans but would like an officials opinion.

The rules seem to indicate that a completed pass in the end zone should be a touchdown.

The only requirement appears to be having progress stopped in the end zone.

Since the pylon is in the end zone and out of bounds his progress was stopped(by touching the pylon) in the end zone(by being in the end zone).

This rule right here seals the deal. To have a catch the player must have firm control of the ball with some part of his body touching the ground inbounds. In this play when he controls the ball his foot touches the pylon which is clearly stated by the rule you posted as being out of bounds.

Here are some AR's which deal with forward progress of an airborne player. Notice that an airborne player will get credit for his forward progress only if he completes the catch by coming down inbounds and the ball becomes dead when he comes to the ground inbounds.

Approved Ruling 5-1-3
I. Airborne A1 receives a legal forward pass one yard within the
opponent’s end zone. As A1 receives the ball, he is contacted by B1
and first comes to the ground with the catch at the one-yard line,
where the ball is declared dead. RULING: Touchdown (Rule 8-2-
1-a).
II. Airborne A1 receives a legal forward pass one yard within Team B’s
end zone. As A1 receives the ball, he is contacted by B1 and first
comes to the ground, on his feet, with the catch at the one-yard line.
After he regains his balance, he runs and is downed at Team B’s
five-yard line. RULING: Not a touchdown. Team A’s ball at the spot
where the ball is declared dead.

As stated, an airborne player touching a pylon is out of bounds and the pass is incomplete. Forward progress is a term indicating the end of advancement. Forward progress was not yet stopped in this play. He was still going forward. Notice in the AR's that I posted all involve a defensive player. A defensive player has to be the one stopping a players forward progress.

Too bad they ain't even close to having a decent football team play in the so called "best college football stadium in the country".

His progress stopped when he hit the pylon. Anytime you are ruled out of bounds your progress is stopped. And in this case he is by definition in the end zone and since an airborne receiver whos progress is stopped in the end zone with a firm grip on the ball which seems to be all that is required. I would agree that it was not a touchdown if he hit or was outside of the boundry line when his progress was stopped but he was clearly by all of the rules I could find in the end zone. Just like in the navy utah bowl game a fumble that hit the pylon even though it did not go past the goal line was incorrectly ruled down at the one yard line. It should have ruled a touchback since the pylons are in the end zone. Which is what the NCAA said.

The ref in this game must have read the rule book and I wish that Delany would also.

The exceptions for completed and incomplete rules in the end zone were put in for a reason just as the definition that the end zone includes the pylons on the goal line for a reason. If plays like this should not be ruled a touchdown the rules committee should rewrite them.

I laughed as soon as they reviewed the play during the game because I new he was judging the play by the rule book and most people who have never read the rule book would never agree. It defied common sense but sometimes rules do.

You clearly are a rules expert and are wasting your time here Why not contact Delaney and the Big Ten direct and let them know you are available to straighten them (and every other person who actualy understands NCAA Rules) out:
James E. Delany
Commissioner
1500 West Higgins Road
Park Ridge, IL 60068-6300
(847) 696-1010

Did you not even read the rule that states "an airborne player is out of bounds when he touches a pylon". There is not other rule that can trump that. Every rule in the book requires a player to COMPLETE the catch. By rule, to complete a catch you have to have firm control of the football AND some part of your body touching the ground (not the pylon) INBOUNDS. Again, the rule states that an airborne player is out of bounds NOT INBOUNDS when he touches the pylon. It appears however that you don't believe what the book says and I suspect you would argue with God over the words in the Bible.

Jason:
I expect he would have more success arguing the wording in the Bible - there are a lot of different translations of that book. Various organizations each claim theirs is the 'correct' version.
With the Rulebook, it is covered by 1 organization and 1 release that is valid (the current edition). Less wiggle room.
:D

The rules in the end zone still require a receiver to come down with at least one foot in bounds
Progress can only be stopped by another player who prevents the player from touching the ground in the end zone. And this is not to be confused with causing an airborne player to land out of bounds. That results in an incomplete pass.

Despite your attempt to make the rules say what they do not, the picture of the play in question defies all your attempts to argue that black is white.

http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.d...xH=650&title=0

ARTICLE 4. a. If a live ball is declared out of bounds and the ball does not
cross a boundary line, it is out of bounds at the ball’s most forward point
when it was declared dead (A.R. 4-2-4-I) (Exception: Rule 8-5-1-a, A.R.
8-5-1-I).

Incompleted Pass
ARTICLE 7. a. Any forward pass is incomplete if the ball is out of bounds by
rule or if it touches the ground when not firmly controlled by a player. It also is
incomplete when a player leaves his feet and receives the pass but first lands on
or outside a boundary line, unless his progress has been stopped in the field of
play or end zone (Rule 4-1-3-p) (A.R. 2-2-7-III and A.R. 7-3-7-I).

SECTION 2. Touchdown
How Scored
ARTICLE 1. A touchdown shall be scored when:
a. A runner advancing from the field of play is legally in possession of a live
ball when it penetrates the opponent’s goal line (plane) (Exception: Rule
4-2-4-e) (A.R. 2-23-1-I and A.R. 8-2-1-I-IV).
b. An eligible receiver catches a legal forward pass in the opponent’s end
zone (A.R. 5-1-3-I and II).

Now look at the definition of catch.

To catch, intercept or recover a ball, a player who leaves his feet to
make a catch, interception or recovery must have the ball firmly in his
possession when he first returns to the ground inbounds with any part of his body or is so held that the dead-ball provisions of Rule 4-1-3-p apply.

From page FR-81: b. A player or an airborne player who touches a pylon is out of bounds.

Now what is all this about 4-1-3-p that you keep claiming to trump all this. If you notice that is the rule that your post uses as a reference as well as mine.

Here it is:
When an airborne pass receiver from either team is so held and
subsequently carried that he is prevented from immediately returning to
the ground.

You see, in the play in question, that player WAS NOT held or carried that it prevented him from coming to the ground. He was simply pushed and hit the pylon before touching the ground inbounds. Incomplete Pass.

WHy do you guys waste your time? The zenman is cearly in another zone and his alternative reality makes this a TD He is so wrapped up over the "fact" that the pylon is "in the EZ" he cannot see the fact that it is OUT OF BOUNDS. In his mind, the receiver came to ground in the end zone..period. Fortunately for everyone he is not officiating football at any level.

Because my parents told me I would argue with a brick wall. :D

Neither citations are pertinent to the play in question.

Next?

[QUOTE=JasonTX;548088]SECTION 2. Touchdown
How Scored
ARTICLE 1. A touchdown shall be scored when:
a. A runner advancing from the field of play is legally in possession of a live
ball when it penetrates the opponent’s goal line (plane) (Exception: Rule
4-2-4-e) (A.R. 2-23-1-I and A.R. 8-2-1-I-IV).
b. An eligible receiver catches a legal forward pass in the opponent’s end
zone (A.R. 5-1-3-I and II).

Now look at the definition of catch.

To catch, intercept or recover a ball, a player who leaves his feet to
make a catch, interception or recovery must have the ball firmly in his
possession when he first returns to the ground inbounds with any part of his body or is so held that the dead-ball provisions of Rule 4-1-3-p apply.

From page FR-81: b. A player or an airborne player who touches a pylon is out of bounds.

Thanks this is what I was trying to find out since the rules for complete or incomplete pass was not that clear.

I did not see the exception in the end zone was the player had to be held.
or is so held that the dead-ball provisions of Rule 4-1-3-p apply

The incomplete pass said unless his progress has been stopped in the field of
play or end zone. The reference attached contained the exception.

I knew he had not touched the boundry line and since the pylon was in the end zone it seemed to indicate that all that was needed was for his progress to be stopped in the end zone.


Thanks

My parents said believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

Sorry if I offended you I just wanted to get a better understanding of the ruling in this case. I assummed maybe mistakenly that that part of the purpose of this forum was for fans to get a better understanding of the rules.