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Scooby Sun Oct 12, 2008 07:21am
Questions on 4 Situations
 
I was working 7th grade football and there were 4 situations that caused many complaints. I believe that I got then all correct. Fed rules.

Sit 1. 1st and 10 on the 25. A1 pitches the ball to A2 who rolls out and passes the ball and then is hit by B1, the pass was incomplete. I called roughing the passer on B1. ½ the distance and auto 1st down.
Coach's complaint is that Roughing the passer cannot be called because A2 is a running back.
Rule 2-32-11...A passer is a player who throws a legal forward pass. He continues
to be a passer until the legal forward pass ends or until he moves to participate in the play.

Sit 2. 1 and 10 on the 15. A2 is tackled by the face mask on the 14. I rule 15 yard face Mask penalty and 1/2 distance to the 7, 1st and 2 on the 7.
Coach wanted automatic 1st down.
Only Roughing passer, kicker and holder, snapper and defensive pass interference include automatic 1st down.

Sit. 3. 4th and 10 on the 40. K has only 6 men on the line of scrimmage and the clock is stopped. K1 kicks the ball to R1 who is tackled inbounds. R accepts the penalty for illegal formation. I start the clock on the ready for play.
Coach wants it to start on the snap because the play prior to the penalty the clock was stopped.
Rule 3-4-2 b3

Sit. 4. 1st and 10 on the 30 with 45 seconds left in the second quarter clock is running. B1 encroaches. 1st and 5 on the 35, clock starts on the ready for play. In my judgment B was not trying to consume time.
Coach wants the clock to start on the snap because "you can’t penalize us on their penalty."
Rule 3-4-2 b3

Did I get these right?

BktBallRef Sun Oct 12, 2008 08:22am
Yes, you did.

bisonlj Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:57am
Actually, situation 3 should have the clock start on the snap. If either team is awarded a new series after a legal kick, the clock starts on the snap. The others look right to me.

SC Ump Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby (Post 542621)
Sit 1. ... A1 pitches the ball to A2...
In Sit 1, were there runners on base or not? Oh wait... if you mean A1 threw a backwards pass to A2, then I agree with the rest of that situation, too. :)

SC Ump Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 542644)
Actually, situation 3 should have the clock start on the snap. If either team is awarded a new series after a legal kick, the clock starts on the snap. The others look right to me.
This is one of those rules I always have to remind myself about. But in this case, with the accepted penalty, I don't think there was a new series awarded.

OverAndBack Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby (Post 542621)
Sit 1. 1st and 10 on the 25. A1 pitches the ball to A2 who rolls out and passes the ball and then is hit by B1, the pass was incomplete. I called roughing the passer on B1. ½ the distance and auto 1st down.
Coach's complaint is that Roughing the passer cannot be called because A2 is a running back.
Coach is an idiot.

LeRoy Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:53am
Coach
 
I hope that you charged the coach with a time out if he wanted to talk to you that much. :)

Jmuvol Sun Oct 12, 2008 02:10pm
Scooby...welcome to the world of lower level football. I had a play like your first situation last year with a back that took the backwards pass, threw it legally down field and then was roughed. Coach said we couldn't have roughing because he wasn't a quarterback. That's why it's called roughing the "passer", not roughing the quarterback. Coaches at this level have little or no clue. They mix high school, college, and NFL together to get what they think will work in any given situation. You made the right calls. Keep it up.

BktBallRef Sun Oct 12, 2008 02:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 542644)
Actually, situation 3 should have the clock start on the snap. If either team is awarded a new series after a legal kick, the clock starts on the snap. The others look right to me.
Maybe it's different where you live but here, in sub-varsity games (this was a 7th grade game) we follow the old rules. We do not start on the snap unless the previous kicking play ended OOB. My guess is that's the OP's situation as well.

bisonlj Sun Oct 12, 2008 03:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 542675)
Maybe it's different where you live but here, in sub-varsity games (this was a 7th grade game) we follow the old rules. We do not start on the snap unless the previous kicking play ended OOB. My guess is that's the OP's situation as well.
If this was a 7th grade game, I don't even stop the clock. ;) Most middle school games around here start the clock on the RFP in almost every situation (it's been a few years since I've worked games at that level).

To answer the other question, I believe this is considered a new series and the clock would start on the snap. The general rule of thumb I've been told is that if the ball is legally kicked, the next clock will start on the snap regardless of the outcome of the game. If I'm wrong I've been given the wrong guidance.

Welpe Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 542679)

To answer the other question, I believe this is considered a new series and the clock would start on the snap. The general rule of thumb I've been told is that if the ball is legally kicked, the next clock will start on the snap regardless of the outcome of the game. If I'm wrong I've been given the wrong guidance.
There wasn't a new series awarded. If R accepts the penalty for K's illegal formation foul, the down would be replayed so the clock should start on the RTP in this sit.

Scooby Mon Oct 13, 2008 07:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeRoy (Post 542651)
I hope that you charged the coach with a time out if he wanted to talk to you that much. :)
No time out, he got an unsportsman like conduct and that ended the the conference. And he did got a second one in the late in the game and finished the game in the parking lot.

bisonlj Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 542762)
There wasn't a new series awarded. If R accepts the penalty for K's illegal formation foul, the down would be replayed so the clock should start on the RTP in this sit.
Correct. I misread it (twice). I was thinking K got a first down due to the penalty.

Welpe Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 542817)
Correct. I misread it (twice). I was thinking K got a first down due to the penalty.
Ah in that case you would be correct...as I learned just last week. ;)

bisonlj Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 542824)
Ah in that case you would be correct...as I learned just last week. ;)
Great!! We can now justify our time on these forums because we are learning AND teaching and all becoming better officials!!

ajmc Mon Oct 13, 2008 01:16pm
The only reminder I might suggest, is that in situation 1, where a runner develops into being a passer, there is an additional, albeit limited, measure of leeway given to the defense according to how that transition occurs. NF: 9.4.5 (Roughing the passer) includes the language, "after it is clear the ball has been thrown" which establishes the point at which the defensive restrictions begin.

As for starting the clock on the ready after a defensive encroachment; although you have the authority to decide to hold the clock until the snap, if you decided the foul was deliberately intended to illegally consure time, your judgment to start the clock on the ready seems entirely appropriate as you mention the clock was running after the previous play.

OverAndBack Mon Oct 13, 2008 02:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 542834)
The only reminder I might suggest, is that in situation 1, where a runner develops into being a passer, there is an additional, albeit limited, measure of leeway given to the defense according to how that transition occurs. NF: 9.4.5 (Roughing the passer) includes the language, "after it is clear the ball has been thrown" which establishes the point at which the defensive restrictions begin.
Correct. Had a situation like that recently where the QB rolled out and it appeared he could run and then he pulled up and threw and got hammered. WH said it was close, but the transition you speak of was the determining factor in him NOT calling RTP.

Of course, if they go for the head or something, you could still have unnecessary roughness, correct?

Scooby Tue Oct 14, 2008 08:41am
Oh, by the way, I had Bill Welke, Major League Umpire on the down box for the game.

Welpe Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:36am
Was this before or after the tag by Varitek at 3rd base? I would've loved to pick his brain about that call.

parepat Wed Oct 15, 2008 01:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 542762)
There wasn't a new series awarded. If R accepts the penalty for K's illegal formation foul, the down would be replayed so the clock should start on the RTP in this sit.
I am still of the opinion that the clock should start on the snap. If there was no penalty the clock would not start. The clock was stopped at the snap as well. The reason we stopped the clock was not solely because of the penalty.

JugglingReferee Wed Oct 15, 2008 02:05pm
Canadian Ruling
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby (Post 542621)
I was working 7th grade football and there were 4 situations that caused many complaints. I believe that I got then all correct. Fed rules.

Sit 1. 1st and 10 on the 25. A1 pitches the ball to A2 who rolls out and passes the ball and then is hit by B1, the pass was incomplete. I called roughing the passer on B1. ½ the distance and auto 1st down.
Coach's complaint is that Roughing the passer cannot be called because A2 is a running back.
Rule 2-32-11...A passer is a player who throws a legal forward pass. He continues
to be a passer until the legal forward pass ends or until he moves to participate in the play.

Sit 2. 1 and 10 on the 15. A2 is tackled by the face mask on the 14. I rule 15 yard face Mask penalty and 1/2 distance to the 7, 1st and 2 on the 7.
Coach wanted automatic 1st down.
Only Roughing passer, kicker and holder, snapper and defensive pass interference include automatic 1st down.

Sit. 3. 4th and 10 on the 40. K has only 6 men on the line of scrimmage and the clock is stopped. K1 kicks the ball to R1 who is tackled inbounds. R accepts the penalty for illegal formation. I start the clock on the ready for play.
Coach wants it to start on the snap because the play prior to the penalty the clock was stopped.
Rule 3-4-2 b3

Sit. 4. 1st and 10 on the 30 with 45 seconds left in the second quarter clock is running. B1 encroaches. 1st and 5 on the 35, clock starts on the ready for play. In my judgment B was not trying to consume time.
Coach wants the clock to start on the snap because "you can’t penalize us on their penalty."
Rule 3-4-2 b3

Did I get these right?
CANADIAN RULINGS:
  1. It is called RTP for a reason. A RB can certainly pass the ball after receiving a backwards pass.
  2. Facemask is a UR foul, which carries an AFD. Otherwise, same penalty app: ½ the distance to the goal.
  3. If the play with the illegal formation is after the 3-minute warning, clock on the snap, otherwise clock on the ready.
  4. Clock on the snap as we're under the 3-minute warning.

Welpe Wed Oct 15, 2008 02:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by parepat (Post 543332)
I am still of the opinion that the clock should start on the snap. If there was no penalty the clock would not start.
You are correct if there were no penalty, the clock would start on the snap for two reasons (1) a team was awarded a new series following a legal kick and (2) team B was awarded a new series. Neither of these things happened though because there was an accepted penalty.

In that case, you look at what caused the down to end. In this case, the ball carrier was tackled inbounds so the clock wil start on the RFP.

Quote:
The clock was stopped at the snap as well.
That would only matter if you had a dead ball foul prior to the ball becoming live, otherwise the clock status prior to the ball becoming live is irrelevant when a foul occurs.

I will try to provide some rule references tonight (books are at home).


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