Sayville NY Protest
 

Pulled from another forum:


The video of this play is on Newsday's website. You've got to see it to believe it.

http://www.newsday.com/video/?autoSt...clipId=2995059
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You haven't heard the last of the wild ending in Kings Park's 41-35 win over Sayville on Saturday. Sayville will file a written protest this morning at the Section XI offices in regard to the final play of regulation.

With six seconds left and Sayville leading 35-27, Sayville faced a fourth-and-1 from its own 30. Dillon Boos fumbled the snap and the ball bounced toward halfback Corey Caulfield. A video shows the ball squirt just out of Caulfield's reach. Kings Park's Trevor Ruxton goes down on two knees, grabs the ball with two hands and throws it over his head toward the Sayville goal line.

Then, Kings Park's Sean Russell beat Terrence Macken to the ball, catches it on a bounce, and runs in a TD to make it 35-33 as time expired. A two-point conversion tied it at 35 and then KP won in overtime.

Sayville coach Rob Hoss requested a meeting with head ref Ed Hickland to address the play before the two-pointer. "I told him that the Kings Park player was down on his knees with the ball and that he threw an illegal forward pass toward our end zone," he said. "I said, 'This is just ridiculous and I'm protesting the play right now.'"

Hoss said Hickland told him that he didn't see it that way and told him to leave the field. A phone call to the president of the Suffolk County Football Officials Association was not returned.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/footba...,5494847.story

The film certainly shows that the coach has a very very very good point.

Is this the Ed Hickland who frequents this board? :eek:

That's what I was just thinking.


It sure looks like he is down and also threw an illegal forward pass.

Ed, nothing personal, we all make mistakes. We just hope it doesn't end up on YouTube or even worse, the local news. I feel your pain, partner.

I am going to venture a guess here, but I don't think I agree with it at all...

I going to guess that the official did not think that he had possession when his knee was on the ground and then batted the loose ball.

Looking at the video I don't think that is the case but that would be my guess as to what the official on the field was thinking.

It looks to me as if the offense actually recovers the ball and the defender rips it out and tosses it over his head in the process. It should have been dead before the defense even got it.

Around here I've never heard of a protest even being allowed. Game over.

Wow!! If I'm that official I blow the whistle right there, the ball is down at the recovery and game is over.

NFHS allows you to legally bat a loose ball forward?

Only in certain restricted situations, of which this example is not one.

My point was that while the play looks like there were many things wrong to it for me, I was just guessing as to what was going through the mind of the official in the video.

I did state I did not agree with the call...

I would hope we all would.

But the brain is a funny thing. Sometimes we know what we should do and for some reason, we still don't do it. Especially in the heat of the moment, which is different from seeing it days later on tape on the internet.

As for a protest, there's no NFHS mechanism, but I would imagine a state could do it if they so desired. I think they'd be opening one hell of a can of worms if they did.

ANother story from newsday.com ( a "heads up play" ??????)

Kings Park player is toast of town for heads-up playBY GREGG SARRA | [email protected]
12:18 PM EDT, October 9, 2008

Kings Park's Conor Kelly was at the center of controversial play that helped his team defeat Sayville on Saturday. (Photo by Joseph D. Sullivan / October 9, 2008)

This was Christmas morning for some on a fall Saturday afternoon. It was too good to be true for Kings Park linebacker Conor Kelly. An almost certain loss to Sayville seemed inevitable. Yet, somewhere in the recesses of Kelly's mind was the smallest notion of what if . . .

There is always a "what if" scenario in sports. That's why all football players at all levels from peewees to the NFL are taught from the first day of practice that it's never over until the final whistle blows.

Kelly made the season's most improbable, but totally heads-up play. With six seconds left and Sayville leading 35-27, Sayville faced a fourth-and-1 from its own 41. Quarterback Dillon Boos fumbled the snap and the ball bounced toward halfback Corey Caulfield. A diving Caulfield had the ball squirt from under his facemask as Kelly went down on to his knees and grabbed the ball. Kelly then threw the ball backward over his head 11 yards, toward the Sayville goal line.

Kelly, a 6-3, 205 pound captain, a three-year starter, is the toast of Kings Park for having the presence of mind to make the play and for battling until the clock read 0:00. The strong side linebacker came hard off the end on the final play.

"We're taught to never give up and that's what our coaches preach," he said. "I came in as fast as I could and I ripped it out of his [Caulfield] hands. And I wanted to keep the ball alive. So I thought we'd have a chance if I threw it toward the goal line."

Kelly laughed while recalling the play.

"It was so unbelievable," he said. "I took the ball and threw it over my head and then I saw [Sean] Russell running with it. I was in pure shock."

Russell caught the ball on a bounce and ran it in for a touchdown to make it 35-33 as time expired. A two-point conversion tied it at 35 and the Kingsmen won in overtime.

Boos still can't believe the finish.

"Coach Hoss called a quick kick to catch them off guard and I was going to toss it back to Corey," Boos said. "I fumbled it after the snap because I was trying to do it so fast. We had just come back from 27-14 and I was thinking this isn't happening. The ref was standing right there. How could he not see [Kelly] throw the ball over his head. You can't even do that in a schoolyard with 10-year-olds. It was totally illegal. That's not a play, that's not real, no way."

It's very real

It already has unfortunately. Ed, hang in there.

It ain't all bad...over 30% of the people responding to the Newsday site's poll think it was the right call (no call)

This is one of those plays that's easier to call from a distance than from on the field. At first, it looks like A might recover, but they held their whistles and the ball slips out. Then as the R closed in to see if B recovers the ball flew out of the pile. I think the either wing would have had a better look at it than the white hat.

This play could should have had a flag (which could have been picked up if needed) or a discussion after the play and a late flag -that wouldn't have been very good but it would be better than letting it stand.

It is the same.

And there is no linesman around that can help on this play????

Yes, it is. For various reasons cannot talk about it.

Stuff happens, Ed. 99.9% of the people who criticize officials don't have the b**** to put on the stripes and walk out on the field. This, too, shall pass.

Keep your head up Ed. Been there done that, it passes eventually.

The Referee is right on top of this play. The ball is dead when the defender recovers the muffed snap. His toss over his head is a dead-ball delay-of-game foul. If one were to argue that the defender did not possess the ball at the time of the over-head toss, then you have an illegal-batting foul.

After the coach alerts the Referee, shouldn't the crew have gotten together and made the correct call? Bring back the ball to the recovery spot and put time on the clock, an untimed down for B on the a game-ending foul, or declare the game over. What a cluster@#&%!

I'm glad it didn't happen to me, but recall the football-official's adage: Learn from others' mistakes, because if you make them all yourself you won't be around too long.

I had a play similar to this early this season. My play went like this:

Team A snaps from the A-1. The ball is muffed and is in the end zone. I am the R. A scramble for the ball. As I am moving into a position to see the ball it suddenly comes "spiraling" out backwards from near the ground up to a running back who runs it out of the end zone and is down at about the A-5. We didn't get any complaints about it, but the questions that I had were:

1. Was there a player on the ground who passed the ball? If so, the ball should have been dead. Myself and both wings discussed it and neither of us had a view of the player who caused the ball to come out.

2. Was the ball batted to the running back? If so we should have a flag. My thought was that it was not because I seen the spiral, so that indicated to me that a player had to have controlled it and then passed it.

This is just one of those plays where it is split second and sometimes the brain does not react fast enough. I think that everyone who has ever put on a striped shirt and officiated a game will know that you can never get everything that happens on the field.

REPLY: No Mike...in Fed you can never legally bat a grounded loose ball forward, i.e. toward your opponent's goal line.

It's easy to Monday-morning quarterback, but this kind of thing happens when you get too close to the play, as it appears the white hat is. Fumble doesn't mean "get as close to the ball as you possibly can."

It appeears that the white hat was within ten feet of the player who was on his knees when he tossed the ball. What was he looking at?

This protest wasn't allowed either. It was a judgement call and it's not reviewable.

You quick kick with 6 secs. left and an 8 pt. lead!!??? You deserve to lose for that reason alone! (Although the other team might not deserve to win.)

Thanks to those who sent private messages. I have been bombarded with calls, messages, opionions, etc. over this one call.

I remembered how I tried to get those 6 seconds off the clock but being honest the play clock started at 31. Then came the delay of game, in fact, the clock was directed to put 6 on the clock has it had ticked down to one and he was the losing home team operator.

The Newsday message board wants my head and funny thing happened yesterday, got a call to do a game at Sayville -- not on my life!

Quickly, here is what happened. The fumbled snap came rolling toward me and it appeared it had been recovered and I would have to separate the players to determine possession. Notice the Kings Park player come in and shield my view at the same time I am looking for the ball and holding my whistle when suddenly the ball is in the air. How did it get there? At 1/5 normal speed the answer is simple in real time not so simple.

We conferenced. The story I got was the player in wrestling the ball away knocked it in the air. Whats the rule, if you cannot prove intentional its accidential and I am positive someone will criticize the logic.

Should I have seen the throw (the player admitted he threw the ball yesterday)? Should I have been so close?

We did not make the right decision and why? I had the line judge on that side go over the video.

This is one of those where you blew it and egos prevent you from saying it.

Ed, you are certainly not alone in this mess, though as white hat you are held responsible. Someone on your crew should have come up with a least one of the many possible calls that could have prevented the score. Rest assurred that some good may come of it. From now on in all of my pre-games I will stress maintaining concentration even when it appears the game is over. One question, and one that everyone should consider if the opportunity should arise. Was there any way you could have delayed your RFP to get you under 25 seconds?

I would advise against delaying the RFP in a close game like this. Let it play out. Fumbles happen. Bad snaps happen. Forget the controversy surrounding this play, by delaying the RFP you're taking a chance away from one of the teams.

I once worked a playoff game where the R did just this. B was trailing by 3 points. A was just held short of a first down. We set the ball with about 30 seconds left in the game. The R held his whistle until the clock was under 25 seconds and then told A that they didn't need a to snap the ball.

His reasoning was he wanted to 'prevent any problems'. What he prevented was a chance at a miracle win by B.

Agreed!

There are many ways to inconspicuously hold that 6 seconds. I'm not advocating standing there staring at the clock waiting for the seconds to tick off. It's all about knowing the situation and the time and working it accordingly. You should always keep a consistent pace on your RFP regardless of the game situation. Had Ed done that we probably wouldn't be having this discussion now. You're not "taking anything away from one of the teams." They have had an entire game to play. Just as it's not up to us to determine the outcome, it's not up to us to enhance their opportunity to win on a fluke play that was incorrectly officiated.

Thanks for sharing your version of the play. I finally got to watch the play last night and speculated it happened as you described it. Because you came in to uncover the pile, you didn't see the player throw the ball. Your logic is correct on intentional/accidental and this time your crew was unfortunately wrong. That sucks but it happens. Too bad your LJ didn't see it though. He should have been wide enough to see this clearly.

Do you think the play would have turned out differently if you had the ability to change balls during the drive? Sorry...couldn't resist. ;)

Keep your chin up and good luck the rest of the season. I'm sure now you can sympathize with Mr. Hochuli.

I agree but I would not do that in this case. The game is still within reach for the defense although it would take a miracle. We only employ this mechanic when the game is well out of reach.

Again you need to read what I'm saying. A deliberate and consistent approach to the RFP is what is needed. If you maintain your pace throughout the game you could possibly avoid something like this. Never rush just because the teams are rushing. Hustle, but don't hurry. Trust me there have been times where I wish I could have waited longer but just couldn't. Ed said he was aware of the time and maybe he couldn't hold back any longer. Quite often I have a no huddle team verses a conventional team. I struggle the entire game to maintain the same pace. The hurry up coach wants me to blow it in immediately so he can catch the other team out of position. By maintaining a constant pace he knows that isn't going to change.

Every single official who's ever worked a game has had a gigantic blown call. My biggest blunder was an IW on a FG attempt. S*It happens. Unfortunately the only difference between my bad call and Ed's is that in today's world with Youtube, etc., these things make it around the world in seconds flat. If there's a lesson I can take away from this it is the lesson of staying far enough away to see the big picture. Some of my worst calls/non-calls came when I was too close to the action to get perspective. The one thing I console myself with is that 99.9% of the people who scream the loudest are the same ones who couldn't last 5 minutes doing what we do.

In OH there are no appeals!

A. Official Selection
OHSAA Bylaw 8, Section 2, reads in part, “Great care shall be exercised in the selection of officials, well in advance of the contest and agreed upon by schools involved. When the contest begins each school waives all of its rights so far as objecting to the officials.” Public criticism of officials is a direct reflection upon those who were responsible for assigning the officials to the game.

Hey, maybe the replacement ball would not have been fumbled! BTW. I asked our interpreter for a decision.

I always sympathized with Ed, in fact, dropped him a line just like a lot of folks have done for me. It helps!

Here are my thoughts and what I practiced that day. With 59 seconds we knew it would be real close. I said to my umpire Joe, what do you think can we influence the clock?

Kings Park had two timeouts remaining and they were going to use them. The third down play ended at about 37-35 seconds and I debated holding the RFP finally giving it at 31 my logic being it would not be fair to not give Kings Park an opportunity in other words I did not want to influence the game.

At six seconds I flagged Sayville for delay of game and like I said earlier the clock wound down but I placed the time back on the clock.

Had Sayville gotten off the quick kick as planned what would have happened. Probably nothing but the end of the game.

[Standard disclaimer, official, but not the oblongate ball type]
Why would you try to influence the clock? Missing a call is not a mark on one's integrity, we all miss them them. But why would you blow the ready for play anytime but when the ball is ready for play in a close game?
________
EndlessJoy live

Except for this guy, of course.

My point exactly. We did not try to influence the clock like in the 44-0 game, in fact, as I said we put time back on the clock which was the right thing to do.

Yeah, that post was a joke.

Wow, tough deal Ed.

From looking at the video though, it appears that the LJ (or HL, whomever that was at the bottom of the screen) had a MUCH better look at it than you. For those that are criticizing you for being too close - it seems as if (like you said) you were coming in because there was a pile-up for the loose ball. It appears that by the time you got around the player to actually see the ball, the ball was up in the air.

Man, that was just a tough play - too bad it happened at that time, and not at a relatively innocuous moment.

I've heard that the average amount of time from the end of a down to the RFP is about 12-15 seconds. That's why the new college timing of 40/25 really should not be that different of a pace than what they had before. If the previous down ended at 35-37 seconds, it would not have been unusual to mark it RFP at 20-25 seconds remaining. If you had it marked RFP in 6 seconds, you must have had a runner down on his own (no tacklers on him or other to unpile) with the U right there to spot the ball right away.

SanDiegoSteve certainly made it clear that he reserved the right to remain stupid!

I agree. Perhaps that is your usual pace though Ed. Do you call a lot of delays of game through-out the season? If you do perhaps you could slow down your RFP through-out the entire game.

I also agree that we don't see everything. Even with 7 guys you don't see everything. Perspective limits us to usually two or three views of a play but sometimes it gets down to only one or maybe even none. I would bet that if you really looked at any game you were working that there is probably a time or two during the game where something could happen and nobody would see it. We work hard to limit those times but there is no guarantee that we can eliminate them.

That is way to fast to blow the RFP. That is only 4-6 seconds after the down ended. I understand that you don't want to deprive B from a chance at winning but you don't want to hurry up and deprive A of a sure victory.

Dick Honig would blow the RFP 13 seconds after the down ended. That would put you at 24-22 seconds left and A would have never snapped the ball. Check ou the youtube video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YladJ-etR4

It's really not a criticism. It's just something I've thought about and really feel -- I do not close in during these fumble situations (or most other situations) as hard as I used to -- I have an umpire and two wings who should be closing in. OTOH, something like this could happen, or alternatively, the defense could scoop it up and head towards me quickly. If I'm too close, I could get steamrolled or perhaps miss something (this play). On top of that, I'm the one who has the goal line and if the ball does come the other way, I don't want to have the player blow by me before I can even start in that direction.

OK Rich, that makes more sense - you're saying somebody should be closing in, but not necessarily the R. I actually like what you just said and I will probably incorporate that into my mechanics if/when a similar situation presents itself. Because like you said (although it was apparently an illegal action), the players did blow by Ed on the play, so if there was a play at the GL he really wouldn't have been close enough to properly officiate it.

Good stuff.

Not an R, but it seems to me that the teams can sometimes dictate the pace of the RFP. 13 seconds probably sounds reasonable (sounds like not much time, but a lot can happen in there). Sometimes even if teams don't "hurry up" they have a quick pace to their offensive game, and as a crew, you should match that. You can manage it a little bit, I guess, but our job is to facilitate.

As to this play in particular, shoot, it could happen to anybody. Sucks when the play you miss is THAT PLAY and it ends up being the one that the video goes everywhere on. Hang in there, Ed. NOBODY who's done this for any length of time hasn't been on the wrong side of something like this. Doesn't make it any easier for you to take, I'm sure, but we've got your back.

A fight to the death
 

"It's absurd that the Section doesn't even take it to committee," Sayville coach Rob Hoss said. "This official missed the play badly, didn't follow protocol, and my players are getting penalized. This whole thing is ridiculous.

"The head official blew the protocol by not listening and addressing my complaint on the field and convening with his crew. He spoke to the crew after the touchdown was scored and then I asked to speak with them about the play and he refused. I have a right to protest, and that in itself should be enough reason to listen to our complaint with the entire crew so they can think about it and make the right decision."

Bob Hallick, president of the Suffolk County Football Officials Association, said, "It was a judgment call and that's it. We don't have protests over judgment calls."

Hoss said the district plans to appeal yesterday's ruling.

"By Section XI rule, I have to protest on the field and the official has to give me the opportunity to make that protest," he said. "If he doesn't, then what kind of due process is that? This official basically broke the Section XI rule on the field. How can he explain the ball traveling 11 yards in the air from the ground without someone throwing it?

"Our biggest argument is that they never gave us due process to contest the call on the field," Hoss said. "I screamed at the official to come to me and hear what I had to say. He refused to hear my concerns about the illegality of the play. That in itself is a huge violation of Section XI protocol. The official has to explain why he didn't convene after I protested on the field. This is not over."


They were denied there 879th Admendment right of Due Process on the Football Field. How dare the referee not allow a protest on a judgement call. The coaches have been watching Law and Order for years...they know their rights. They should appeal the ruling to the Supreme Court. The outcome of this game is of national and international importance.

Like most everyone else here, I hate that this happended, especially to someone as well respected as Ed. But bad things happen some days. We learn and go on. Keep your head up guys...the screaming idiots will find something else to yell about soon.

I have learned to take this opportunity to prolong whining away from coaches. I utilize the philosophy we are taught in baseball....the official does not rule on the legitimacy of protests, he just accepts the notice of protest....even on judgment calls.

When he says the word "protest" I write it down along with the time in the game, scenario and any ruling, and then move on. He got his notice of protest recognized, and I've got the game going again.

Let the "protest committee" tell him that judgment can't be protested.

Sorry to divert from the officiating perspective, but just gotta complain from a coaching perspective. You might want to quick kick with 60 seconds left, but with 6 secs. that's just crazy. Too much can go wrong.

What you do is try to run that 6 secs. off the clock running, or standing with tight pass protection. If the circumstances were a little different a retreat to the end zone might be in order. Whatever, the possibility of leaving a second on the clock with your opponents to snap the ball is better than producing a loose ball and scramble, which is what you get even if you execute the quick kick well.

Robert

Our RFP is usually 12-15 seconds which in this area is pretty fast and we know, if you want snaps we'll give them to you. The coaches have adapted and DOGs are less than .5/game for a season, we had two in this game and both against Sayville the last one and one at 3:12 which we told the QB as time to snap and he was looking at the clock.

Not to make excuses but we started 5-man this year and there are adjustments and I will be reviewing those for tomorrow's game.

Ed, 12 to 15 seconds from the end of the last play? Based on a 40 second playclock in the big leagues, your max would be dead on a for a full 25 at that point.

What I'd really like to know is your feel for how long you have been taking from the point the ball is spotted before the RFP?

We've been using 3 to 4 seconds all year any have had little problems. That point is covered in our meeting with the head coach so they know.. we're not waiting around for them. it will be consistent all game long. Ball spotted. tick tick tick then the RFP.

My umpire usually spots the ball within 5 seconds if in the middle and about 8-10 from the side zone.

I let the coaches know before the game. Some other officials don't move the game that fast so early on I remind them especially being a DOG slows the game down.

Oh ya... that guy... SanDiegoSteve. :rolleyes:

I will look at our recent films at some point and figure out what we do.

I know I am patient once the ball is spotted. I'll look to both wings and the box to make sure they're all set, which takes about 3-5 seconds.

The chain crew was slow last night and they commented on my pace on first downs, which is no different than any other down. They were just slower. I do know that I got a compliment at halftime from someone working in the press box saying that we had very good pace out there.

At the end of the day, the teams adapt to the crew. We've not had a DOG in 4-5 weeks on Friday night. And with a 35-20 game last night (8 touchdowns) with homecoming (20 minute halftime), we still finished the game in 2:10.

RFP is three ticks from when the ball is set. Huddle, no huddle, hurry-up, makes no difference.

I assume you wait a little longer if there is a delay in getting the down box and/or chains set? This also assumes no other administrative delay (official getting into position, player equipment, etc.). Or do you have your umpire wait for all that is done before setting the ball?

I assume you mean personally and not some absolute standard. I know I'm a bit slower than that normally.

It is what our clinicians teach, our association endores and evaluators look for.

It is a crew effort. It requires that the HL makes sure the chain crew (particularly the box) is doing their job and that the umpire, SJ and BJ do their jobs in a manner that doesn't create a delay.

Consistently assessing that a crew is doing their job, " in a manner that doesn't create a delay" is clearly an appropriate objective. Assuming a specific time interval can be set as an overriding requirement, seems like a dangerous and unnecessary requirement.

There are all sorts of common occurences that can affect that interval; a slow(er) chain crew, a player an Umpire has decided needs a special word of guidance, a reasonable, appropriate question from a coach to a wing official.

Under "normal" circumstances a specific time interval may be attainable, but the circumstances are what should decide the interval, not the other way around.

I've never been concerned with or counted the number of seconds after the ball became dead for the ball to be declared RFP. I signal RFP when it is READY FOR PLAY. No sooner nor later. The moment the ball is placed on the ground AND I see that my crew and the chains are ready, I declare it RFP. This time will vary, I am sure.