End of game - Dirty Play
 

We had a very competitive varsity game a couple weeks. It was between 2 in-county teams that have a yearly rivalry game. It was a very intense game but in the end the visiting team came out ahead. There was 2 seconds left, the visiting team was on the home team's 5 yard line and was getting ready to kneel on the ball and end the game.

Coach notified the HL that they were going to kneel on the ball. He moved in and started letting the defense know that they were kneeling. At U I also turned to the LB'ers that they were kneeling. There was a LB to my right that was jawing off at the linemen, pointing at the TE saying "I'm gonna get you! Your mine!" As the QB went into his routine, the LB'er starting charging towards the TE and went in, head first at the TE drilling him pretty hard.

How would you all handle this?

I possibly have an ejection. If the play was late, I would have no problem ejecting the player. He not only said something that showed his intentions, he acted on it.

Now we tell players to "protect themselves" and not to assume anything. But if he was a little late, I got him. Or you could have addressed the situation when he made his comments and hopefully the coach would have got the hint.

Peace

If the LB went in before the snap, I've most definitely got a DQ. I may also decide to end the game if I believe that B's team actions were in conflict with the football playing ethics listed at the start of the rulebook.

If the LB went in after the snap, I've got a UR. There is nothing that says if A is going to take a knee, that B has to let up. If A fumbles the snap, the ball is live and B has 100% of the right to try and recover that ball - in which they can score! Therefore, I do not expect B not to play to the end of the play.

When I lived in another area of the country, that was our philosophy. Nobody EVER told us there was going to be a knee taken and we handled it as normal.

Here, they ALL notify and they expect both teams to let up. I had a hard time with this at first, but.....when in Rome, I guess. As soon as I see the snap not fumbled and the knee starting down, I blow the whistle, even if the knee hasn't yet touched the ground. Never a complaint by anyone on that. Again, when in Rome.

Sounds like a flagrant illegal helmet contact foul to me. Flag and eject.

Taking out a lot of the extra details, you have a LB who makes a statement like that and then drills a guy head first. This is a no brainer - PF and ejection. The PF is for the illegal hit and the ejection is to thank him for announcing to the world that the illegal hit was not poor technique or a mistake, but rather a deliberate attempt to injure another player.

When I was in college, our best lineman (a senior) had his season ended on this type of play. We were kneeling to run out the last bit of clock, and a LB flew in and broke the lineman's leg.

You could have flagged the LB's threat before the snap as USC.

The hit could have/should have been flagged as a personal foul. Leading with the head is illegal helmet contact. Sounds like a DQ was definitely in order.

Throw the flags and let the league or state deal with it.

I only do HS -- but besides the ejection, I am ending the game if it would have taken a second kneel down. You dont get a second bite at the apple. If that means I have to stand over the ball for a half minute reconfirming what down it is, then so be it.

I like it.

As this play is described, including the pre-snap comments that the covering official heard, not DQing the offending player suggests a real problem with understanding what the role of an official actually is.

We can argue from now until forever about whether, or what, to say to the teams when you're told the offense is taking a knee. That has absolutely nothing to do with a player taking a premediated "cheap shot".

There is no rule, no interpretation, no intent anywhere that can, or should, be weasel worded to allow, or encourage, a player to engage in this type behavior. The consequences of such behavior are severe, as they well should be. It's our job to insure that the full weight of these consequences are enforced.

Ditto. I hope that's what happened.

Announce the game as over, technically a forfeit 2 secs. short of full time. If the circuit has some beyond-the-game sanction (such as player suspensions) that depends on any report you're required to give, get the offender's number and you can tell them afterward it was a DQ. Get out of there ASAP and leave any subsequent "action" to the police.

Robert

I'm not a football ref, but here's what I'd like to see done. Flag the lineman's threat as USC. Rule it an unfair clock tactic in trying to prevent a play from happening. Then wind the clock on the ready.
________
EASY VAPE BOWL

I've seen a lot of flags mentioned so far in this thread. But I would expect my umpire to try to prevent the cheap shot in the first place.

You're right there with the kids, and you've heard his plans. A word from the umpire probably prevents the cheap shot and the potential for injury or a fight.

mayhem
 

End of games, especially "highly spirited" ones can get a bit furry. I am reminded of a game my junior year in college against a bitter rival where they had no chance of winning and were going full tilt, trying to hurt someone. I believe there were two pf in that series. When the buzzer sounded, their whole sideline sprinted on the field and it was on.
The officials sprinted, just as fast, off the field, which I thought at the time was a bit odd.
As a player at the time, I thought it was cool, going after one another after the game. Now, as an official, I think I would have been greatly embarrassed if something like that would happen under my watch.
Surely I wouldn't expect officials to break up a fight after the game, I just think surely something could have been done to prevent it in the first place.
cheers,
tro

Getting a new ball can sometimes take a while.;)

But what if there is no consequence to be enforced? Unless the school or the league the school plays in has some beyond-the-game consequence for such a player -- suspension, cleaning erasers, whatever -- nothing is to be gained by your pointing out the violation. Everyone who was still paying att'n to the game saw the cheap shot, so I don't see how your pointing it out could embarrass the player any further, and delaying the end of the game under such circumstances only increases the chance that things will really blow up. So unless you know that there's some beyond-game sanction that depends on your official report, just get out of there fast! And even if there is some such beyond-the-game sanction, you can give your report later, no need to stick around. If a rumble ensues, that's not your responsibility.

Robert

"Surely"? One team showed up to play, the other to injure. The only thing that could've prevented that would've been for one team not to be there.

I'm in a situation like Rich
If the O says they will take a knee - we relay it and the D is expected to sit back and wait.
If O pulls a play - USC unfair tactics
If D attacks - PF probable ejection
In this case definate ejection. We report all ejections on our game reports and the association deals out penalties, ususally 1-3 games, but this would probably have been either 3 or 5 games (depends on the player's history). We have also had a few year long and lifetime bans.

I should probably note that the LB'er DID wait till the ball was snapped. He didn't go for the ball or the center...he drilled the TE.

I did hear his statements and I did tell him they were kneeling a few times.

I also did throw my flag and we got together as a group to discuss the situation. I let my white hat know what happened and that I thought this situation deserved an ejection. As we talked it over, the AD and head coach came over to discuss it with us. We talked about it and it was determined (by the white hat) that nothing would come of it and the coach and AD would address it with the player.

I don't mean to be harsh but you should not have discussed this with the coach prior to making a final decision about the player. For all you know, the coach knew his player should've been ejected and was lobbying you to not eject him to keep him in next week's game.

I will be harsh. It was WRONG for your white hat to allow the coach anywhere near the discussion. In Georgia, the mechanic is that one of the wings or back judge not involved in the discussion is responsible for standing between the coach and the huddle of officials, allowing them to step away and discuss enforcement properly and privately.

Based on what you've reported here, your white hat dropped the ball, and allowed a player to commit a premeditated, major, flagrant foul that could have caused severe injury with no consequences. Whether you've been and official for 23 years or 23 minutes, you should tell him so -- and ask him why he bothered to take the field if he wasn't going to enforce such a flagrant foul. Tell him to go sit in the stands -- he'll be just as useful there.

/vent mode off

I agree, your WH was very wrong in how he handled this. Call the foul and administer the required penalty. In this case it should have been 15 yards and a DQ.

How the coach, AD, prinicipal, state and the kid's mother handle it is not our concern.

Secondly, there is no need to tell your WH that you think this requires an ejection. You tell your WH that you have ejected #99 and that's the end of the story. You're not asking some other official to eject him for you, you are ejecting him.

Friday we had a coach yell out that they were going to take a knee. We notified the defense. The QB didn't take the knee right away but backpedaled about 4 yds and then was moderately hit.

I don't like the fact that he didn't take the knee right away. I have to rethink this.

Any ideas?

I don't like saying anything in these situations, but if I do say something, it's: "IF the quarterback takes a knee, you cannot hit him." So far, it's worked out OK.

So if the Offense says they are going to take a knee, and then the offensive tackle blasts out and nails the defensive end, are you going with PF and probable ejection on the OT also? Or is it just the defensive players you nail for attacking in this situation? I ask because we had this happen in our game Friday night - the U tells all of my defensive players that The QB is taking a knee - all my defensive players relax somewhat, and then the tackle absolutely blasts my DE off his feet - and the U and White Hat said "He should have been prepared." When I asked them if they would have flagged the DE if it was reversed, they got kinda red-faced and said "Probably" and then left the field...

Under what rule?

I like this approach. I use similar wording but the same exact message.

"If the ball carrier is down the play is over. Do not touch him." Then wait for a response.

During a DI game the mics picked up an official yelling 'be smart, be smart' before what appeared to be an 'obvious' kneel down situation. It got the point across, and it showed the players that officials were watching and were keen to the situation.

Personally, I feel that announcing 'it's going to be a kneel down' presents many potential problems: 1. if the team does not kneel down, there is no rule broken here, A should not be penalized, yet they have gotten a 'free' play since the other team let their guard down at the official's request/command; 2. if A were to announce a kneel down, B lets off, and then A muffs the snap, B will likely not be ready at all to pick up the ball on the ground.

To point out again, the way we handle declared kneel downs is NOT by-the-book, but how we have been instructed to handle it, and all teams abide by it (as far as I have ever heard).

Rockyroad - Asked about an O-liner firing out after declaring a kneeldown - yes definate PF, probable ejection, same criteria as with the D

Walt - for the Unsportsman like. I guess we would file it under 9.2.3.c
If an obviously unfair act not specifically covered by the rules occurs
during the game
It is obviously unfair since they have declared they are giving up the 'right' to advance the ball and just want the clock to run down... Like I said, it is just how it is done here. I was also surprised like Rich when I saw it.

I like that.

One last thought as it relates to the coach that yells out and says we are taking a knee and then the QB takes 4 steps to kneel down. QB gets ball....blow the whistle kill the play. There is nothing good that is going to happen if we await the QB to come to his senses and get to his knee. Too many QBs watch too much tv---see the way the qb tries to kill an extra second and all heck breaks lose.

I disagree. I'd no sooner do this than I'd signal a TD when the runner was at the 10-yard line with no defender within 20 yards of him. Make the players do what they're supposed to do.

You can never assume they are going to do what they say they are going to do. I tell the defense that IF the QB takes a knee not to hit him. I ask the QB to step back from the center to take a knee, this allows him to be protected from the defense trying to crash the line. This should all happen quickly enough that any hits from the LB's would be a late hit. I remind everyone that the play is live and they need to protect themselves.

Doesn't the ref rule on all penalties? I don't know of any independent power any other official has in enforcement, and a DQ is a penalty.

I always thought a really smart coach would have his QB on a knee when he takes the snap. So far I have yet to see that.
I'm wondering why would you not step in and try to prevent unnecessary crap going on with a declared kneel down situation? We do all sorts of stuff during the rest of the game to prevent injuries, escalating tension, etc. But for some reason all that goes out the window when the game is obviously over except for running a little bit of time off the clock?

Take heart, MikeL, the norm at football fields all over this country is that competent officials take charge of "Take a knee" situations and 99+% of the time all works out as anticipated.

"What if" situations can be good mental exercises to help prepare for the unexpected, but when they are extended beyond any point of rational discussion, or practical application, they can easily become counter productive.

The whole act of a hand to hand snap is difficult to do; it takes some practice to get it down. Unless the QB and snapper are proficient at snapping with the QB being lower because his knee is on the ground then there is a much higher chance that the snap will be muffed.

Rule 2-16
ART. 6 . . . Game situations which produce results somewhat similar to pen -
alties, but which are not classified as fouls are: disqualification of a player, first touching of a kick by K and forfeiture of a game.

No that's not the case. DQ is a judgement call for the covering official just like every other call. For example, how could the WH decide whether a late hit out of bounds also merited a DQ when he wasn't able to see what happened on the play? The wing has to make the call on the late hit, and only he can decide if the shot also deserves a DQ.

Please describe how they take charge so we can be sure we are doing it correctly.

Thanks!

Sorry Blue37, that's an answer you have to arrive at all by yourself. There have been many opinions as to how, and how not, to handle this type situation and you have to decide, for yourself, which way works for you, because you are the only one who will have to defend what you decide..

That's Fed? Strange wording, to say a DQ is a "game situation" which produces a result similar to a penalty but is not a foul. Of course a DQ isn't a foul -- it's an administrative action, not something done by a participant! But it sure as hell is produced by a foul, and I'm pretty sure it's listed in places as "Penalty:...also disqualification of offending player."

What they probably meant to say was that a disqualif'n can't be declined and isn't offset by an opposing foul. Fed used to be a lot more careful about how they wrote their football rule book.

Robert

Who actually administers the DQ? Can the wing just walk up to the player, say, "You're off for the game" or whatever, and write down the player's number? I don't think so. It's the official's judgement as to what happened, but unless things have changed radically, the wing has to explain that to the ref and the ref (or maybe the ump, I'm not up to date on this) actually administers the DQ.

Robert

Yeah, that's pretty much how it happens. I tell the kid he's done for the night and then go in and tell the WH what I have already done so he can give the proper signal to the press box. I then go over to the sideline with the WH and explain to the coach what happened and that I ejected his player.

The referee's role in this is to give the signal. I've called the foul and I've disquailified the player.

Saying you will take a knee and failing to do so, could be interpreted as an unfair act (under a very broad interpretation of the rules anyway). The easier way? You know those holding calls you don't enforce when they are away from the play? Somehow they become more noticible right now.

The “stay off the QB when on a knee” comment is smart. Does anyone protect the center? If A intends to take a knee, B could put 11 men over the center and end up knocking him into the QB legally, they do have some rights to disrupt the snap. “Be smart” covers this put is pretty vague. The ideal is the defense plays regularly (one player over the center) and the QB quickly kneels so the defense can let up before they really start. What would you flag if the defense shifted into this dangerous alignment over the center? UC? or Just stop play and tell them not to do this? Nothing, and allow danger to occur? The more you think about the kneel situation the more dangerous you realize it is.

Recent game, A up 21, they announce their intent to take a knee.

I tell B, "They're taking a knee. IF they actually take a knee, stay off the quarterback." No complaints, no malicious statements or apparent intent on B's part to get revenge. No incident.

There are few guarantees in life, and one size NEVER fits all. The question could be is it wiser to take some action that helps to minimize danger 99.9% of the time, because it may possibly contribute to that danger 0.01%?

That's a decision we each have to reconcile with.

You are joking aren't you? 11 men lined up on the center? Dangerous alignment? In my 20 years of officiating I have come across some really kooky and idiotic coaches, but never one that would even imagine something like that. Are you somehow thinking the force of 11 players could all hit the center at once? I apologize for anything negative I may have said to you in that other thread. It is unthinkable that I would have argued with someone that is obviously so mentally challenged. I do commend you for being able to get on the internet and type words. If someone else is doing the typing for you please extend my apology to them as well.

I remember Marino "Faking the spike", instead throwing for a TD. I was surprised that did not fuel roughing the passer penalties against the defense in games to come to teach Marino a lesson.

The same is true with the QB taking a knee - if you assume they will because they say they will - and they don't, is there - should there - be a penalty assessed?

Thanks. I was reading a article in an old Sports Illustrated (early 90's). College officials missed some calls at the end of a few games all in one day. So this was basically an article about the officials, and it featured quotes by some. This quote came from a then-Big Ten umpire. I do not remember his name, but I thought it was a good quote and some words to remember.

Yes, 'be smart' may be vague but it also prevents a situation where the defense is lulled into a sense of false security. As for the 11 defensive players lining up over the center...do they all line up single file right back from the snapper? In terms of protecting this player, if they knock him down on an kneel down, take a shot to the head, etc. it is a foul and potential ejection. The center does not get 'extra' protection on this play--the standard is pretty much the same for all players on this type of play.