Little help
 

Fed Rules: 4th and 2 sticks Team A uses the sideline for deceit. Is that a USC penalty 15 yrds from LOS? Loss of down or repeat 4th down? Do you throw the flag & let the kid to run to the EZ or blow it dead on the catch by the mysterious wide open player?

Thanks in advance!

How did he do this? Was it a pretended substitution or did he just hide and hope not to be seen?

Details on how the player got there. If he simply didn't come inside the 9-yard mark between the RFP and the snap, it's illegal formation, live ball, 5 yard penalty from the previous spot.

The players on the field realized *wink-wink* that they had 12 players.

"Johnny what are you doing, get off the field".

Keep in mind, I already counted 11 and signaled with the Ump.

Coaching staff: "what are you doing get off the field".

He gets pretty close to being off the field & darts 20 yards downfield where he is hit with a bullet & scores 6.

Deceit as such is not illegal. If the player met the formation requirements mentioned by Rich above, then the play is legal, play on.

What rule do you think team A violated?

It is illegal participation to use a player in a substitution or pretended substitution to decieve opponents at or before the snap. Live ball, previous spot, 15 yds.

Oh really?

So not USC but IP instead, 15 yds from LOS & repeat 4th down in this sitch??

Nfhs
 

3.7.3 SITUATION A: B11 mistakenly believes he is his team's 12th player and
leaves the field before the snap (a) on his opponent's sideline, or (b) on his sideline
and enters his team box. B11 then discovers his error and returns to field on
his team's side of the neutral zone before the snap. RULING: In (a) B11 has committed
illegal substitution by leaving on the opponent’s sideline. (3-7-2) In (b),
there is no foul as long as B11 remains a player. (2-32-1) If done intentionally to gain an advantage, it is an illegal participation foul or it could be an unsportsmanlike foul. If B11 returns to the field after the snap in either (a) or (b) and participates,it is a live-ball foul for illegal participation. (9-5-1f; 9-6-4 a and d)

As soon as the coach uses those words, he has stepped over the line.

Classic example of CB 9.9.3.Sit-B

Kill this play IMMEDIATELY and hit for 15 yards.

Bingo.

You don't know that until the play develops. The coach could easily just have been mistaken.

What does "immediately" mean? You don't know it's intentional until the player at least turns upfield.

Robert

As soon as it's snapped.. !

Of course the coach could be wrong.. but he's not!. He's making the other
team think he's wrong and that there is a problem he needs to correct.
It's BS all the way.

Robert, when you're on the field and this happens, it's very obvious the coach is not simply mistaken.

Especially when you counted/signaled 11 prior to the BS unfolding. It was so rehearsed :D
So whether it's IP or USC the result is the same, 15 yrds & repeat the down?

USC, even when it occurs during a play, is always administered as a dead ball foul.

Thanks for the clarifications, I appreciate it!

So some choose to use the "snap is not imminent" rule (a USC) rather than the pretended substitution rule (a IP)?

I doubt that. The player could still be ostensibly exiting, moving toward the sideline, as the ball is snapped, probably not turning upfield until after the snap. Are you allowed to kill the play at that time?

I've been on the sideline enough to know that the coaching staff can all be mistaken and pull one of 11 off the field.

Robert

If that's the case then the player wouldn't have turned upfield for the play. USC, blow it dead. Don't allow this play to develop.

How can it be IP though? If there are 11 players on the field then by definition it's not IP right? Unless he didn't check at the numbers but, unless I'm reading wrong, he came from the direction of the huddle. As long as the formation is correct then there wouldn't be a problem as long as the player left the field and didn't come back right?

USC if we realize this before the play. IP if we talk about it after the fact. Either way we're taking 15 yards from the previous spot.

Wait a minute. IP and USC are not the same, and should never be treated as such.

Yes you can have IP for a "pretend substitute"
and you can have USC for an unfair act

Keep in mind that IP is a 15 yard replay the down and we move on
USC is 15 yards, replay the down, and one more the coach is gone! (cause the coach is getting this one for teaching it IMHO)

What message do you want to send?

Total bush league...in an 8th grade game a few years ago in my hometown, the quarterback started under center, threw his hands up in disgust, went in motion to his sideline yelling that he forgot the play, coach was yelling "now what?".
Having a pretty good idea what was coming next the ball was snapped. I blew it dead at the snap 15yd USC.

Look up youth football plays on youtube, and before long you will find the ole' "coach, we have the wrong ball", as the center hands the ball to the qb, who walks around end, and takes off running.
again...total b.s.
I vote the next youth fb coach who does that gets stringed up, holding a sign that says, "I am an idiot".
cheers,
tro

Bob, stick with the play description... the original posted stated something like "do you let the kid run to the EZ after a mysterious catch" .
You know he had to have turn up-field at the snap. This cannot be permitted, the play is to be killed.
For all practical purposes, it was killed at the snap, even though it might have been a second or two delay to as you point out to be sure he was not just running off the field.

You'lll not see this linf of play at the Varsity level nor JV level, but you can almost count on it at the Pop-Warner / Youth Football level because of the type of coaches they have. They just don't know nor understand the rules of the game as they dream up these trick plays.

But you don't see the player turn upfield until the ball is in play. I take your answer to mean, yes, you are empowered to blow it dead after the play begins.

Robert

First-year official here, but allow me to cast my vote for the illegal participation. This is covered by Rule 9-6-4d.

The Case Book example referenced above doesn't fit this play as well as this rule does. Rule 9-9-1 applies to "an unfair act which has no specific rule coverage." This play has rule coverage.

Live ball foul. 15 yards from previous spot.

I wouldn't call IP because you had 11 players and he never left the field and came back in.

You won't know of the deceit until after the snap and he cuts upfield. Then I would have USC. You flag the USC but why stop the play? You wouldn't stop it if someone dropped the F-bomb on you during a play. What happens if the pass is intercepted?