San Diego/Denver
 

Wow what an ending. A bitter pill to swallow for Charger fan. What do you football guys think of the "fumble"?

I don't think there is much to say other than the call was missed, and it happens. If it happens in the 1st quarter, no one says anything about it. After the review, Hochuli said it was a fumble, but that posession stayed with Den. since the whistle was blown. Everyone on here has made a mistake, and this is just proof that it happens to one of the best.

It was a fumble.

However, give credit to Ed Hochuli for admitting to Coach Turner the error he made by blowing the play dead too soon.

But, did you see Turner after the game saying that Hochuli told him that it was his mistake and Turner said that was unacceptable. This is why you have officials not admit their mistakes. Turner just through Ed's honesty and humility back in his face.

Turner's a coach. There's a natural animosity there.

I'm sure given a day to get away from the heat of the moment, Turner will understand, though he'll still think it sucks (obviously, it does).

I'm sure there are those in and out of our profession who will either take great glee in the fact that the big Ed Hochuli kicked one or who will feel it's more in line with their world view that all officials suck. But I can guarantee you that nobody's plane ride home tonight was as bad as Ed Hochuli's.

It can happen to any of us. How we handle it is the key.

...which sucks because he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. I admire Ed for admitting his mistake. It takes guts. There's nothing that aggravates coaches more than when BOTH the coach and official know the official blew the call and the official makes up some ruling to save his butt that clearly didn't happen.

Don't pi$$ on a coach's head and tell him it's raining... Ed man'ed up to his mistake- it's just unfortunate that Turner threw it back in his face like that.

Yep...Ed is still and will be one of the best officials in the NFL...he made a mistake, he admitted it...he was a man about it...and I bet he's able to move on...but yes, probably a pretty crappy plane ride back to AZ.

It is too bad that Turner had to do that back Ed after the game at the press conference. And I agree, that is why most officials do not own up to their mistakes.

As for Turner realizing his comment about Ed might have been out of line, I am not holding my hopes on that, because of that being the way Turner conducts himself at press conferences.

Can anyone tell me what this means anyways? They say stuff like this and it's just anger talking I guess. I think everybody is pretty much on the same page in that mistakes aren't a good thing. What's unacceptable? The apology? So not admitting the mistake would be? Are you saying you want a do over? What?

I think he is saying he wants there to be some perfect system that will fix everything. Maybe he should talk to Michael J. Fox and see if he can borrow that time machine thingy so we can take everyone back to the same precise moment the mistake was made and then not make it.

What's the alternative? Ed H. doesn't admit the mistake and Turner watches the film on Monday and sees it's a mistake, accompanied by a message from the league admitting that the call was wrong. Now Turner goes off saying Ed H. won't admit to his mistakes.

What's the Referee supposed to do is this situation? He saw it as an incomplete pass. It turned out it was a fumble. Possession calls like this are commonly overturned when reviewed.

The problem was the whistle. Then again, what do you do when you rule a pass is incomplete?

I'm probably mistaken but I thought the NFL made a change a couple of years back to disregard the whistle on the field when there was a question about a fumble.

REPLY: They did, but I think that rule was only with regards to a whistle that signalled a player down (by contact). It may not have anticipated an incomplete pass/fumble scenario. And, I believe that rule requires that the whistle is ignored only if a recovery takes place immediately following the whistle. They can't ignore it indefinitely.

You really can't win in this situation. You want to protect the QB so you're give a strong whistle to let everyone know the play is over but then replay shows it was a fumble. The other option is to hold off on the whistle if there's any doubt and risk having the QB injured while the ball is loose.

Besides, Ed Hoc will most likely tell you that he was sure it was a pass.

Turner's a mediocre coach whose lackluster career got rewarded with YET ANOTHER head coaching gig. In terms of credibility, Hochuli has quite a bit more than Turner will ever have.

True. The alternative is to find a perfect official -- one who cannot possibly err -- to replace the fallible ones the NFL currently hires. Oh, wait, that's not possible...

NFL officials rarely make mistakes. When they do, it rarely affects the outcome. The Chargers and their fans are understandably upset and feel a sense of injustice after this low probability event.

But reason needs to trump those feelings, and they need to get over it, knowing that the officiating and rules systems in place are the best the league knows how to produce, given human fallibility. Anything more is just whinging.

We all know, even coaches, that no matter how hard you suck on a whistle you can't bring the tweet back. I'd like to think Honchuli did what any good official would do, own up to a mistake and get the call right (according to rule).

Unfortunately Turner did, what he has done often before, sieze on someone else's mistake to try and rationalize an unfavorable outcome.

I'm quite certain that nobody feels worse than Mr. Hochuli.
His whistle has helped me get past the IW I had on a fumble that has haunted me from two years ago. It can happen even to the best.

Someone needs to ask Turner how many poor play calls Mr. Hochuli made during the game, or how many tackles he missed, or blocks he missed, or passes he failed to complete. Blaming the loss on him is ridiculous.

Any comment on Hochuli's position? Iirc the QB rolled to his right and Hochuli was behind the play looking through the QB instead of on the side of the QB's throwing arm. I thought he was completely screened when the ball came loose. He could see the arm motion but not the ball.

Thoughts?

As with many of these types "things " it is the RULE that needs changing.

We have all made mistakes. The problem is that Official mistakes are GLORIFIED.

What should have happend (and maybe the NFL will change the rule) is that the Charges should have ben awarded the ball EVEN THOUGH Hochuli blew his whistle however, that's not what the CURRENT rule states.

The fact is the Chargers gave up 495 yards of total offense. You do not WIN in the NFL giving up that kind of yardage. The ball was at the 10 which in the NFL is for the most part difficult to score because the end zone is like an extra defender for the defensive backs.

Last week the Charges allowed the Panthers to march down the field at will.

Pete Booth

Easy to say -- what happens when 18 of the 22 players stop playing (as they're supposed to) on the inadvertent whistle? Do we just reward the player(s) that ignore the whistle and don't stop?

While I agree that this a great lesson for us all, my advice would be that two years is too long to be haunted by a mistake. Remember it, sure (I don't know that I've me the official who doesn't recall his or her IWs - I have two), but there's a statute of limitations on beating yourself up. At some point, you have to say, "You know what? I'm human. That was a bad one, but I'm not going to let that happen again if I can help it at all."

Now, granted, none of us has made a call in front of 75,000 people and a big TV audience that can be looked at as a deciding factor in a game at the highest level and on which coaches' livelihoods may ride. But the concept is the same. You do your best, you own up to it when you kick one. And if you kick too many of them, maybe this isn't for you.

But one moment doesn't define a career (or shouldn't).

I await Mike Pereira's appearance on NFL Network this week. When is that, usually, Wednesday?

It won't define his career. Rather, 85's career will be defined as one of the best officials ever.

Just follow this thread all season long:

http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=48623

While they certainly got hosed on the missed call, the refs didn't give Denver two scoring passes to the same receiver on consecutive plays. While SD certainly missed out on a recovered fumble, it wasn't a fumble they caused, so they weren't penalized for a great play.

Denver still had to put the ball into the EZ twice.

If you're like me, aren't you thinking, "Man I'm glad hawkishowl20 doesn't coach the Chargers." ?

Be nice to the new guys: we want them to stay! :D

Allow me to quote Jerry Seeman, the former NFL Supervisor of Officials...it is something that I have heard Ed H talk about at NASO Conventions....

"Perfection is impossible, excellence is not. Excellence is what you get while striving for perfection."

The only problem apparently is that Ed is not God. He's still the best. The real answer from Turner should have been-- "He told me he blew it--I accept that...I dont like it....but I accept it. Now who the hell do we play next week." Just my opinion.

I guess, technically, it could be called an IW but Ed clearly was signalling incomplete. I agree that he had a bad angle on the play. I don't remember exactly how it developed, but Ed was in a bad position to see what happened with the ball.

As much as I respect Hochuli, the ball does not fly backward if it was in control when the arm comes forward.
The Charges still blew it. This team reminds me of Air Coryell, can score a bunch a points but can't stop anybody. Very disappointing. Ted Cotrell, your defensive schemes suck.

Hochuli's on-field announcement of the ruling and its inclusion of acknowledgment of his mistake was a first in my book. I was pulling for the Chargers and was railing against the call (with benefit of a few slow motion replays) and was puzzled that there was no remedy but within seconds of Hochuli's announcement I understood things and turned over a game-load of points in respect for a darn good ref.

I was, of course, livid and screaming at the TV (which is really stupid, I know). But a 5 year-old little girl could plainly see it was a fumble. Not to mention the Chargers getting screwed out of another blown call on the so-called "interception" that never happened, all because the stupid replay equipment wasn't working. That is the one that stopped SD's momentum right off the bat. It totally took them out of their rhythm and put them back on their heels.

As to the Hochuli call, I say the bottom line is; if the fumble had been called properly, the Chargers would have easily run out the clock, and the Donks wouldn't be celebrating their tainted victory. The Chargers were hosed and should be 1 and 1 instead of looking down the barrell at 0 and 2.

And if San Diego had made more plays during the game and prevented Denver from scoring any of the first 31 points they would have won. Or if they had stopped them on the next two plays or the two point conversion they would have one. The bad call definitely contributed to the loss but it wasn't the only reason they lost this game. I'm sure Hochuli made many fewer mistakes that contributed to this game than the players or coaches of the Chargers. It's just easy to blame the officials. I don't fault you for your passion though. That's why "fan" is short for "fanatic". The Chargers are still a very good team and will recover.

My favorite quote was this one:


Who the hell cares what PlasticFace thinks of Ed Hochuli? And since this was an AFC West game, why are his comments even relelvant?

Says the baseball guy.

Just sayin'.

So umpires are human, but football guys aren't?

;)

By whom? I'm sure the reporter didn't ask that followup.

Highly criticized enough to work two Super Bowls, I guess.

If only Jerry had some influence on the NFL. If only he was a powerful owner of a big team about to move into a billion dollar stadium. If only he was well-known, maybe he could rid the NFL of highly-criticized officials.

Just curious...this may have already been asked, or the answer may be obvious, so I apoligize in advance, but....

With Hochuli ruling the pass incomplete, why was the ball placed on the 10 "where the ball struck the ground"?

If i remember correctly, the line of scrimmage was inside the 10. if the pass was ruled incomplete, why not place the ball back at the original line of scrimmage for the next play? Not trying to be a smartie, just wondering.....:D

The play was ruled in inadvertent whistle. And since there was actually a fumble, the ball is placed where the ball was ruled dead. The place the ball was ruled dead was the 10 yard line.

Peace

Thanks!

Not quite THE bottom line. The real bottom line was if the SD defense hadn't been so porous on that final drive, they would have won the game. The Chargers put up only token resistance on that final drive.

The Bronco's final scoring drive started on their own 20. It was an almost 4 minute, 12 play drive. In the drive, the Chargers only twice held the Bronco's to a 3rd down (at the Denver 28 and again at the Chargers 10). In fact, of the 12 plays, only 4 were even from a 2nd down situation, whereas 5 were from 1st down. During the drive, Cutler completed 8 passes, counting the 2 point conversion, and had only 1 incomplete pass attempt. The Broncos won on a 2 point conversion throwing to the same receiver who scored the TD.

Yup, sure sounds like the courageous San Diego defense had that one stolen from 'em. Yup, sure did.

I really love the PTI show. I even love the commentary from Wilbon on the show. But at some point when are media people going to educate themselves about officiating matter.

Mike Pereira earlier today on "Outside the Lines" had an interview with Bob Ley. In that interview, Pereira made it clear that officials are downgraded for calls and situations where they make mistakes. And he said that this call could cost Ed Hoculli or any official a possible Super Bowl, playoff opportunity or their job if

Wilbon then goes on a rant about how the NFL is scapegoating Hoculli for this call. Instead it is clear that Wilbon does not realize that this is not a unique situation and this one call would never fire an official all by itself. And now the public thinks that the NFL just downgrades officials when they are really mad. Instead, part of the interview Pereira made it clear that every official is judged on every play. It just never ceases to amaze me how uneducated people that claim to have all the inside information, that they cannot talk to someone and get their facts straight. I am not a media member, and I know better than many of these guys. It only makes me wonder how much in their profession they know little about, but they write on these topics daily.

Peace

Well, everyone is piling on the Chargers fan here. I never said Hochuli wasn't human, I just said he cost the Chargers the game. Which he did. It wasn't the Chargers porous defense or any other "if" scenarios posted. The Chargers recovered what should have been a fumble. They shouldn't have been put in the situation to let Cutler get another chance to score and then go for two. That should have never occurred. What led up to the score being what it was is irrelevant. The call cost them the ball, and cost them the game because they would have easily ran out the clock. Game over.

And I'm not just some fan, I've refereed football and basketball in addition to all the baseball I've umpired. I've never made a call that horrible in my life in any sport, so stop trying to defend Hochuli as "being human." He's a human that cost the Chargers the game, and I'm not the only one who thinks so. Every sportscaster on ESPN seem to agree. What the defense did or didn't do earlier in the game all came down to a great play by the defense being overturned by a BAD CALL. Does San Diego need to improve on defense? Of course they do, but it isn't the reason they lost this one.

I must have missed something. Did Hochuli not stop Denver on the 10? When Denver went for two, was Hochuli preventing the defense to make a play? There were a lot of events in that game, if Chargers do some things, they are never in that situation in the first place. I am sorry, Hochuli might have made a big mistake, but that mistake did not cost them the game. Just like I am a Cardinals fan and a certain umpire in 1985 did not cost them the World Series. There were a few more events that happen afterwards.

Just because you have done those things does not make you right either. Hochuli made a mistake and without the replay I bet more here have made a similar mistake. And if you make everything about one play, then how did Denver get in that situation. I thought Denver had one big time 4th Quarter and if SD defends better, they win the game running away. Sorry it is not about defending Hochuli at all. Unless that was the last play of the game, there were other reasons they lost the game. Sorry, it just is.

Peace

Apparently the official in question feels differently than most. And that's why I respect him so much, he realizes what we do does affect outcomes of games and can be one of the contributing factors to a team losing or winning despite all the excuses of other things that happened.(the bold is my highlite).

"I'm getting hundreds of emails – hate mail – but I'm responding to it all. People deserve a response.
You can rest assured that nothing anyone can say can make me feel worse than I already feel about my mistake on the fumble play. You have no idea ...
Affecting the outcome of a game is a devastating feeling. Officials strive for perfection – I failed miserably. Although it does no good to say it, I am very, very sorry."
Ed Hochuli

There is a big difference in affecting the outcome and being the cause of the outcome.

Peace

You are 100% correct, Jeff.

It's amazing to me that some in the media are either reacting as Wilbon (apparently) did or as if they've just today come to this realization that there are repercussions for NFL Officials who make mistakes.

Of course there are repercussions. There are always repercussions, and always have been. This is not new. Did Phil Luckett get downgraded? You bet? So do most officials in most games unless they call the Perfect Game. They're just not all as obvious as this one. No one calls to ask Pereira if the side judge from a Kansas City/Tennessee game got downgraded for missing a call.

Actually, it was all of those things. In combination.

But fanboys like things nice and uncomplicated so they pick on the one thing that doesn't require them to admit that their team did anything wrong or contributed to the outcome in any way.

YES, if that call is correct, it's very likely San Diego's win. And you could say that about any one of the multitude of other things that occured in that game as they do in every game.

"The inches we need....are all around us. They're in every break of the game, every minute, every second."

You are truly blessed, then. Hossanah in the highest.

Very few of us have ever had the opportunity to make such a horrible call on that big a stage, either.

I daresay I would hope we'd all handle it with the same aplomb that Ed Hochuli has. I doubt we all would.

String him up!

Seriously - if the weekly fortunes of 53 guys you've never met affects your mood for more than about 15 minutes one way or the other, you have issues.

My God, he cost my team a game! How will I ever recover? It's not fair, dammit!

And if there was ever a QED, that's it, I guess.

It's a reason. Along with many others. This is just the easiest target. For you and other fanboys.

Contrast that with how the fans have handled it.

And the fan reaction surprises you?

The difference between a perfect game a simply horrible game is one call. While Ed Hochuli made this one bad call in all his years in the NFL he has been one of the best and one would hope this does not diminish his record. I find it hard to believe any official has not made, at least, one bad call and when it happens you feel like #$%#. I am sure Ed felt that on Sunday and has been up front about it which shows character.

Any official who is critical of Ed truly lacks the real character of a real official, one who understands the human character of those of us who wear the uniform and stands up for one of our brethren when he is down realizing it is he who could be next on whatever stage he works.

While professional sports has taken on a life of its own, it is still a game subject to the human frailities of life of humans whose time on this earth is oh so finite. If the call is made correctly and San Diego still loss would Ed Hochuli be the target. The fault for the loss somewhere lies on the porous defense of the Chargers who allows Denver to run the same play twice, once for the touchdown and immediately after for the go ahead point after. After all, if the Chargers had played a better game and the point spread had been larger probably Jay Cutler would not have fumbled.

According to an NFL official friend who I talked to today, the whistle should have nothing to do with the play.

Hochuli made the mistake of announcing to the crowd that "the play should have been ruled a fumble. By rule, the ball is dead when it hits the ground because the whistle was blown."

My friend told me, "The judgment of the play being an "incomplete pass" caused the ball to be dead, not the whistle. If the pass is ruled incomplete then the ball is dead when it hits the ground." On that play, the whistle has no bearing when the ball is dead.

NFL VP of Officiating, Mike Pereira, has told his Referees (white caps) at clinics to not use the word "whistle" when explaining a call to the crowd. Hochuli may have been flustered (as any of us might have) by his incorrect judgment and forgot what Pereria instructed not to say to the crowd.

And you're sure you want to brag about this?

And this means what? ESPN are the same folks that were taking issues when an USC was called against Washington a little over a week ago. Not doubt Ed missed the call, but to scapegoat him as the sole reason for the Chargers' lost is just ridiculous.

get off hochuli
 

You guys need to get of Ed's nuts. Regardless of the fact that denver and san diego EACH torched each others defense, there was no reason to blow the whistle and rule and incomplete pass. The PASS WENT BACKWARDS for christ sakes. Jay Cutler was not endanger of getting whacked either.

For those of you who did not watch the game there was more to it than the last play. let me recap the blunders of the whole crew.

1st qtr: replay equipment not working, chargers lost a possesion inside their own 30 on a b.s. play (MOMENTUM SWING)

3rd qtr: phantom holding call on chris chambers, did not even touch the guy negated a 40 yd run to the denver 2, SD ended up having to kick a field goal

4th qtr: The Hochuli debacle (EVEN BIGGER MOMENTUM SWING, NO TIMEOUTS TO SETTLE DOWN THE DEFENSE)

all game Ryan clady the LT holding our ROLB (not one call made)

If I was ed I would have found a way to have thrown a flag on Denver on either the final 4th down play or the 2 pointer to redeem myself, having known that I just completely hosed a team that fought back from a 21-3 deficit and obviously would have won the game had I not choked.

LATER to all of you CHarger haters. Im not even that pissed, we started 1-3 and made the AFC title game in 2007

You being a big fan is shown in your post. If all that you said was true, the crew would have many downgrades, and I bet there was only one in the game. The replay equipment being down is NOT the crews fault, so you can take that off your list.

Your big fan showing discounts all what you have said for any credibility of a fair critique of the crew.

Jerry Jones is perfectly correct when he points out that Hochuli is a "highly criticized official."

Just like every other NFL official, of course, but 100% accurate.

I peruse the Baseball forum. Anytime anyone blames an umpire for a loss or for costing his team a run that person gets ripped. Guess it's just a different standard for other sports, right? :rolleyes:

Now please go to your DVR and let us know about all the BAD OR MISSED CALLS that went if favor of the Chargers.

As far as I can tell, Hochuli did everything right short of having x-ray vision. (Outside the wording issue discussed). He couldn’t see through Cutler. The arm made a throwing motion and Cutler dropped the ball for no clear reason (Wet? Fatigue? Pump fake?). From Hochuli’s angle it may have looked like the ball ricocheted off the defender. He might have been out of position but he would have to have been outside the numbers for a better angle. He doesn’t have three camera angles during the play. He said he made a mistake which is the right thing to do. Don’t let a crazy mob stop you from doing the right thing. I don’t know what Turner’s comments mean. “Unacceptable”…to Turner perhaps, well whatever. Things like this happening late in games with the game on the line are naturally treated as a big deal because it’s so easy to simplify it into “Hochuli bad” or “Hochuli lost game.” That is the sort of template TV guys love because it causes emotional response in a few seconds. This isn’t a rule dispute it’s a case study of handling a mistake and Hochuli passes. The hypothetical “should the ignoring whistle in replay if immediately recovered rule be changed to apply to this situation?” question is interesting.

lol.


Impressions and prejudice can cause you to say things that don’t make any sense. It’s still great satire.

Obviously you aren't an official. Our integrity is much better than that. Missed calls are never good, but in the eyes of officials, phantom calls are much worse. 2 wrongs don't make it right. Suppose the chargers sacked the QB instead of the whistle being blown. Guess what. The chargers still have to stop Denver twice. The chargers still would have lost. If you are upset at the officiating this why don't you walk in our shoes for 1 game. You'd freeze up and wouldn't have a clue. I know, I was a fan once. I quit complaining and became an official. Not long after that I realized that officials are right the majority of the time, and most of the things I complained about were flat out wrong. Fans don't know the rules, they don't no the intents or philosophy of the rules. You see, you complain about holding on some plays, but the fact is, what you are seeing may be perfectly legal.

Ditto for me. What an eye opener it is once you get on the field/court.

To clarify:

Jerome Bettis made the mistake in the Pittsburg coin flip game.

The tackle on Joe Horn was all Luckett.

Steve that's about the same argument as saying "But Tim McCarver and Joe Morgan agree...". :)

Thanks for the laugh this morning. It was much needed. :D

The rest of your post is eloquently stated.

So how many games have you called again?

I will leave this quote for everyone's consumption, I think it is most appropriate.

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt

I thought instant replay was instituted to correct obvious mistakes.

Here we have the most obvious blown call in recent memory and despite all the technology and experience in the replay booth the system is impotent.

If that call stood despite being so obviously wrong what is the point of reviewing ANY call?

Well, there is that. But that has little to do with Ed Hochuli in particular and more to do with the rules of the competition in general. And "correct obvious mistakes" should actually read "correct most obvious mistakes, but not all of them" (and for reasons I'm not completely clear on, either).

Things happen and the rulesmakers react to them. Replay is seen as having this overarching God-like ability to write every wrong, when the unfortunate truth is, it probably can't and a big part of that is because of the way the rules are written. Like anything else, it'll get addressed in the offseason.

No consolation for the Chargers, I grant you.

Shouldn't, but in some ways, it does.

I mean, what do they want, exactly?

Hochuli fired? Doesn't work that way.
Result overturned? Doesn't work that way.
Money back? Doesn't work that way.
A shoulder to cry on? You'll have to find someone else's.
An asterisk? Unlikely.*
It's Wednesday. Norv Turner might be over it by now for all I know. The Charger players are professionals, they have another game Sunday. You don't forget, but you move on.

I guess the degree of the petulance and immaturity by fans (which is one thing) and officials (which is another thing) surprises me a bit. I keep thinking that one day we'll have sports in their proper perspective, but I guess that's a ways off still.







*Though for years - and maybe to this day, for all I know - the Bears' media guide had an asterisk on the result of the game from November 5, 1989 because instant replay upheld a touchdown pass that had been called as an illegal forward pass. It said "Instant Replay Game" on that result for a long time, at the demand of Mike Ditka, IIRC.

Doing that would have proven conclusively that you weren't Ed (or any other official worth his whistle, for that matter).

It's just the evolution of replay. I'm surprised they went with allowing a runner ruled down by contact to result in a turnover if replay determines it was a fumble. But even in that case it has to be obvious the other team would have recovered the ball if the runner hadn't been ruled down. They probably didn't include the incomplete pass/fumble situation because it hadn't happened that way very often. They can review it on the offseason and add it as a reviewable play like the down by contact. The same principals can be applied.

I am in favor of the concept of using instant replay to help officials get calls right. You can't always be in the right place at the right time or get the right view of every play and there are many times I wish I could look at replay in our games. My issue with instant replay is it forces the rules to become much more black and white and absolute. A good example from football was the 12 men on the field in last year's Super Bowl. If the player gets within a yard or so from the sideline, you usually let it go but he techncially violated the rule and it was overturned.

Another good analogy will be if baseball extends its replay to other types of plays. The foot swipe on a force at second or the tag of a runner when the ball obviously beats him could then be overturned. Baseball is saying they will not expand instant replay beyond where they are, but you know it is eventually coming.

According to Pareira Phil Luckett asked to be removed from the White Hat position.

He was involved the Pitt/Det coin flip in '98. (may or may not have been his fault)

He was involved in Testaverde TD v. Seattle in '98. (not his fault and pre-instant replay)

He was involved in Music City Miracle. (lauded as a great call)

He collided with Joe Horn on a long pass attempt. (probably his fault but I don't the mechanics of football)

Wow! "Great play?" They didn't perform a "great play" here, they merely should have benefited from a misplay by Cutler. They didn't force the fumble, the ball just slipped.
Obviously, if this call had been made right, they would have won. If they'd covered the receiver, they would have won. If their receiver had kept his toes in bounds on the ensuing drive before going OOB, they could have won as well, on a 48 yard FG.
As with most missed calls, there was time to recover; although admittedly not as much time.

I was just using him as an example, and maybe not the best one, but, as has been pointed out (and as we know, but Michael Wilbon apparently does not), every official gets graded (and downgraded) all the time. Graded well for getting it right, graded poorly for getting it wrong.

I'm not grasping how the Testaverde thing wasn't his fault, though (wing's call?).

I know this is a minor issue, but from my understanding they are only downgraded for bad plays. If they get a play right or they use the proper mechanics or positioning, they do not get an "upgrade." I will ask in a couple of weeks to be sure when I will see at least two NFL Officials at an association function.

Peace

You may be right. The term "upgrade" may be a misnomer (though I didn't use it in the post you quoted). "Graded" they do get. I read once how it all works, and I think they can get a +1 or something (I think it's in one of Markbreit's books, not sure) for a really good call under pressure. I may be misremembering.

The Testaverde TD wasn't his call, it was one of the wings. All he did was report the TD after the discussion.

I know one of the disputes a few years ago during the brief union strike was this issue. I have no idea if that ever changed; I just remember the longest current tenured NFL Official from this area said that that was in issue in their negotiations from the NFL. I do not remember if that specific issue was resolved or not.

Peace

Okay.

Point is, though, as we all know and as (surprise!) everyone else is just finding out, the NFL doesn't just sit idly by and ignore mistakes, no matter what the call, no matter who makes it, no matter what the situation. As far as I know, the procedure is the same for everybody, but if you google "NFL official grades" or something, you see eleventymillion media stories about how this appears to be some big revelation.

Hochuli's not going to get fired for it, there's still 15 weeks left in the season for him to achieve sufficient grades to work in the playoffs, you would think.

I'd be real curious to see if he works a game in San Diego anytime in, say, the next millenium, though.

I think they should send him back next week. :D

Mike Perria said on Dan Patrick show that he would need a lot of vodka to send Ed back to San Diego in the re-match and he said that it is against policy to have the same crew do the same 2 teams. In the same interview he said that he needs his best officials out there and Ed is still one of his best guys.

In the micro sense, it's too bad that a missed call probably contributed directly to the outcome of the game. In a macro sense, this event, if anything, serves nothing but to increase perception about the integrity of the game. Hochuli's response, both immediately on the field and after, and the league's handling of the situation, confirm what everyone on this board knows but that the general public doesn't and which plague the other 3 professional sports (baseball to a lesser degree than basketball or hockey) -- these guys don't give a crap who wins and want nothing more or less than to get it right.

This incident can and should lead to more discussion about how to improve accuracy and whether the rules need to be changed to keep plays alive longer given the potential for review. But that's secondary. As others have said, there's nothing that can make accuracy 100 percent. What matters is how the official and the league respond.

I think there should be a term or pithy expression for the murphy's law aspect of these situations, though -- a missed call always seems to guarantee the result. Once the incident happened, was there any doubt that Denver would win the game? Just like the UW call last week on the ball thrown in the air -- would it be too much for the kid just to make a 30 yard field goal? Of course it doesn't work that way.

A previous poster quoted something that he was even answering his hate email. I suppose I could understand that the league was forwarding the USPS mail that they received to him, assuming it was sent to Ed c/o the NFL. But how is anybody emailing him? Last I saw, officials emails are not posted as a general rule. Does he have a site due to his well-deserved noteriety (before this I mean)? Or is Paul Tagliabue forwarding email on the subject to him? Somewhat curious.

If you search his name you will get his email. Hat's off to him... this too will pass........

He's a partner in a law firm with publicly-available contact information. Part of the joy of being very recognizable.

Plus, some fanboys went nuts Sunday night posting said email address, making it that much easier for overgrown eighth-graders to send vitriol his way.

But, yes, his notoriety has inspired an (unofficial) web site.

I knew better, but I went anyway. :(

Go figure. According to the records the ruling on the field was a fumble and a San Diego recovery challenged by replay.

After replay it was ruled an incomplete pass. The system worked albeit not for San Diego.

I'm not even a football ref, and I can even see how stupid this statement is.

get off eds nuts
 

I am a san diego fan, however I was pointing out that there were multiple missed calls in the game, and the equipment failure, which is extremely hard to handle. Which is why San Diego fans are very upset. Two of the issues resulted in HUGE momentum shifts which are difficult for a VISITING team to overcome. If you know as much as you think you know about football it is a game of momentum.
I am an official and do understand the game moves a hundred miles a minute, I just expect NFL referees not to make such a petty mistake. A good analogy for Ed's mistake would be if I am a Bank teller and I cant count. Good whistle control is one of the top keys to being a good official.
I must admit Ed has never been a favorite of mine, He is the most recognized official due to his explanations and his biceps.

The amount of time the media has spent on this deal proves how bad the chargers got screwed, everyone keeps saying oh your defense should have stopped them but again, if the call was handled properly and they were awarded the turnover they deserved, then we are not having this conversation.

Ed in San Diego
 

If ed works a game in San Diego this year, and commits any mistakes, he will undoubtedly get a shower of beer when exiting the field from the west end zone, he better get mike phelps to give him some swimming lessons.

If it were the raiders he would get a shower of human waste, which is much worse. Or stabbed, like the Dolphins fan a few years ago.

If it was at the meadowlands maybe a barrage of snowballs with batteries.

etc.

He will never be welcomed in the "Q" again.

It is true that if the call was not made, then we might not be in this situation. However, it is also true if the Chargers stopped the same play being, run twice (Denver lost yardage by the way on the IW) then we are not likely having this conversation either. It works both ways and that is what most here are saying on this topic. No one is saying that this was not an unfortunate call. However, there were many things that took place in the game and when a team scores over 30 points on your team and comes from behind, at some point you have to look yourself in the mirror. At least I am wondering when Charger fans will look their team in the mirror just as Washington needed to last week.

Peace

No, you're not. You're a whiny, run-of-the-mall standard-issue fanboy masquerading as an official, just like SanDiegoSteve. There's major differences, one being that real officials don't want any part of fanboy-officials. That's because we're afraid to turn our backs on 'em.

Sorry, but there it is......

Do you mind starting a poll? :D

As long as the fanboys posing as real officials don't get a vote......:)

Better review the records.

That would be great.

Here's what I was going by, a passage from Markbreit's second book (which is really the first book with some new material):

Later, the supervisors reviewed the game films and graded me on all my calls. They grade every call from 1 to 7. A routine call is a 5, a good call a 6, an outstanding call a 7. In 224 games that year, maybe they gave out three 7's. That Monday, when Commissioner Pete Rozelle reviewed the play, I heard that he asked a supervisor in the league office, "What grade did Markbreit get on that call?" The supervisor said, "He got a 7." Rozelle said, "Is that all?"

This was in the aftermath of the Charles Martin/Jim McMahon situation in 1986, so as that was 22 years ago, they may have changed the format since then. But that's what I was going by.

Nice to see an esteemed member rise up from the peanut gallery. :D

This right here proves you're not an official; at least not an official who's done more than 5 games above the YMCA level.

Your Honor, I rest my case.

Every time I try to prove something about officiating I always think to myself "how much time has the media spent on this deal?" :rolleyes:

Basketball official here delurking...

I keep seeing the phrase "inadvertant whistle" thrown around. It wasn't an inadvertant whistle, right? He simply ruled it an incomplete pass, which would REQUIRE that he blows his whistle.

Am I missing something?

Yes, it was ruled an incomplete pass by the R. I don't think that the IW signal was given in the Dever or Dallas games.

Also blowing the whistle is not required when the down ends (runner is tackeled, incomplete pass), some downs do not have a whistle after them.

Grin......

Yes it was ruled in inadvertent whistle. This is why they put the ball on the 10 yard line instead of the previous spot or original line of scrimmage.

Peace