Illegal Forward Pass
 

My first varsity game as a WH last night. QB rolls to the right, I move parallel to the line with him. He then starts running forward and then passes the ball. I moved forward with him as he moved forward. The QB was close to the line, so I bag the spot. My U has also bagged the spot, about 1/2 a yard farther than me. He threw the flag, and I waved it off.

My question: Do I, as the R, have any business making this call, or should I have left it completely up to my U?

Thanks - just trying to learn my new position.

It can be either the U, R, or a wing, just get it right. The R should be trailing the QB, so we can easily have the call.

I'd ask someone in your area what your mechanics on the situation is for your group. Around here, it's the R's call all the way. He may get help from the U, maybe even from the wings. But it's the R's call, the U should not be throwing the flag on this one.
What I do is, as I'm following the QB I take a snap shot of where he is when he releases the ball. Don't worry about the line yet, just get to that spot. In most cases you can just finish the play there, because your primary responsibility remains the QB and the ball is downfield with the players usually moving there too. Then just look to the box to see where your line is. If you are over enough, drop your flag, there's nothing wrong with a slow flag for this call. If for some reason you have to move off the spot, just look before you go.

This is my third year working as R in HS. My former position was umpire. I feel that the referee should own this call and the umpire should provide back up in case the referee did not see it. This is such a huge call that the crew must get it right. The umpire has to watch for inelligbles downfield and he must turn on short passes over the middle.

As R, I trail the QB on the play, then I sprint to the exact location of his feet when he releases the ball. I will throw a flag or not. I don't bean bag these plays since the bean loses precision anyway if you toss it a couple of yards.

Canadian Mechanic
 

CANADIAN MECHANIC:

The side guy on the same side the passer rolled to should have this foul, or the R if the side guy was downfield. Never the U, unless the R 1K% missed it.

Do you practice flag throwing? Bean bag throwing?

I love how the NFL guys always land the flag at spot of foul. That doesn't come without practice. :D

If your U is moving to the LOS when he reads pass, he should be able to do both, plus watch for illegal blocking and for the passer crossing the LOS. No one is in a better position. Trailing the QB, I don't see how the R is going to know where those feet are at the instance the ball is thrown. It's no different than the U trying to call encroachment on the defense.

In all my years of officiating I have never heard of the R having this call. He's probably 4-5 yards BEHIND the QB while the U at a minimum (and the HL or LJ if they are on the LOS reading a scramble) have a perfect view of this. The ultimate responsibility is the U on a 5-man crew.

Rarely, when there is more than 1 bean bag, do they ever wind up on the exact same spot. IFP is never a quick flag, and the Umpire should have observed that other flag and sought information BEFORE unleashing his flag.

However, this is still just another situation where one official saw, or thought he saw something, and another official saw something different. I hope there was a serious discussion between both officials before a final decision was made.

If one official is adamant that he saw something, that the other official may not have seen, or saw somewhat differently, you have to go with what was actually seen over what may not have been. IFP is usually a "big" penalty and either way, the crew needs to yield to whomever is the most adamant about what he actually saw.

In a crew of five, (excluding any GL procedures) I feel the wing's first responsibilty has to be the receivers and should not come back toward the LOS until they are certain the QB is beyond the LOS - so I do not expect help from them. The U can help if the QB is between him and the box - but to the LJ side he has no reference point. I know he steps up on pass, but it is guess as to whether he is exactly on the line.

I agree with MikeL - R needs to take charge just as he describes. The old days of R staying in the middle of the field and never moving is over. He has to be mobile enough to cover this play!

I made a huge assumption on this play - I am assuming the original read was pass - not option. After re-reading the post, I could not tell.

Here in the UK, our mechanics have been the same for a number of years...

6/7 man crew - LJ stays at LOS till pass is thrown. He takes the Illegal pass call. he has the down box opposite him and he is in a great position to make the call.
4/5 man crew - Ump moves up to LOS on passes. He takes the Illegal pass call. If it is between U and the down box then flag it when you see it. If not, bag it and check it after the play is over, then flag it.

We feel U is in a better position to see this than R who is trailing the play. Yes the U has other duties on passes (ineligibles, inside-out help on complete/incomplete) but clearly the illegal pass would take priority.

Correct. It was pass all the way. QB chose to run - to the LJ side -when receivers were covered. As he approached the line, a receiver opened up, so he threw.

I was probably 5-8 yards behind the QB when he released the ball.

For the most part, no I don't. But my daughters have a 'bean bag' toss game that, when they play with me, they generally quit because they lose badly. :D

HAHA. And glad to hear that you spend time with your children!

I just learned this weekend that I need practice. I had my first college FB experience; I was the FJ in a scrimmage, and my flag on a DPI came up almost ten yards short!! Any advice as to how I can get the flag to fly better? I'm thinking of wrapping the ball with white tape...

Do you have the torpedo flag that has a second wrap of tape on it or the long toss flag with additional weight pictured below? They're made to fly further.

http://www.honigs.com/img_item_full/F71L.jpg

BBR is right: grab the torpedo flag if you don't already. Are you too far from the play, such that you'd have to be Superman for the flag to hit Spot of Foul? I think there's an advantage of distance to have a certain parabola to the throw, too. Are you throwing the torgedo flag with the ball as the lead?

It's important to remenber that it's much more important that the bean bag, when targeting something within the field, identify a yardline, rather than a specific spot. Especially with an IFP, the spot is irrelevant and it's the yardline, in relation to the NZ, that matters.

Rather than throw a beanbag to try and pinpoint a specific spot, that may often be in the middle of all sorts of traffic, it's better to simply square off to that spot anywhere along that yardline and drop the bag. Of course, sideline spots is a different story.

U has the best view
 

Our state mechanics stress that the U should be at the LOS for a pass play (we get dinged on evaluations if we're not). I've never had an R overrule me on a pass past the line of scrimmage, and given that I have the best angle to judge this, we'd probably have a lengthy discussion about it if he wanted to wave it off -- or call it if I clearly saw the passer's feet behind the line.

When I was a LJ, I would drift down 5-10 yards with the receivers as my primary key. If when looking quickly to the backfield I see the QB scrambling my way, I would drift back toward the LOS while still watching my receivers. The reason I did that was I had forward progress if the QB was tackled. In doing that it could be possible for me to help with IFP/LOS.

If the U gets to the LOS, it doesn't matter if he's looking toward the box side or the press box side, he's still on the LOS. If nothing else, his responsibility is the LOS while the Rs responsibility is protecting the QB. The U is also either on the LOS or very near while the R is at least 3-5 yards behind the LOS so I don't understand any circumstance where the R has a better view of this play than the U. It's also the basics of everything I've been taught for a U to cover the LOS for ineligible downfield and IFP. I'm very surprised to hear other states use a completely different mechanic.

In answer to the original poster, this sounds like something the should be discussed and determined in your next pre-game.

Who's call should be talked about during the pre-game.

From my stand point you should never over-rule another officials judgment call. Get together and talk it over and let him/her pick up their own flag.

After you over-rule a fellow official enough don't be surprised if you have trouble getting them to drop a flag at all. I was sent out a couple of years ago to do an eval on some new officials. On one play an A player never came inside the numbers so the LJ (eight year veteran)dropped a flag. The WH came over and told him to pick it up that "We don't call that kind of cheap stuff." I was very sorry the following year when the LJ did not come back.

If it is a misapplication or interpation of a rule, over-ruling is fine and your responsibility but not your place to question their judgment on the field.

As R, I have the call as I am the one following the QB. The wings are downfield in our 5-man format. The U backs me up but is more concerned with blocking and ineligibles illegally downfield. The U is invariably farther away from the QB when the ball is thrown since these are usually rollout plays. Many times there are players between the U and the QB so he doesn't have the "perfect" view plus, if it is to the LJ side, he will have to look back over his shoulder to see the downbox and miss the action that he is supposed to watch. I watch where the QB is when the ball is thrown and I go to that spot and stop, keeping my head up and continuing to officiate. When the play is over, I look to the chain side for the downbox and make my judgment. If I had to continue to move downfield to officiate, I'd drop my beanbag at the spot. After watching our crew on game tapes, I've seen us get it right every time. My U will let me know his opinion and we have agreed 100% in the past. When he is 100% certain we go with his call. I had one the other night where I thought it was close, but, upon reaching the spot and waiting for the play to end and check, I realized the QB was about 2-3 yds short, but our mechanic on the play worked.