Illegal shift, or not?
 

A ball, 1st and 10 from A25 yard line. Guard, Tackle and Split End lined up to the left of the Center. On the line to the right of the Center are the RG, RT, A10 and A15. A10 is lined up inside of A15.

A10 realizes that he does not want to be on the line, and takes a step back. Before he has been set for a second, A snaps the ball.

Is this an illegal shift? Or is it a legal play?

EDIT: NFHS rules, if that makes a difference.

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

Legal. Setting for 1 second are for linemen. Since he stepped off the line, he's ok.

Edit: if he broke a 3- or 4-point stance, kill the play for IP.

NF - Assuming A10 is not set in a a three point stance, he may shift to a position in the back field. But he still must be set for one second before the snap - illegal shift.

But does that comport with Fed's definition of "shift"? Only 1 player moved, and backward.

Fed doesn't have a time requirement to establish position in the backfield, either IIRC, just a momentary "set", so it's not illegal formation either. Of course in the <1 sec. he had to become still, you may not have seen him as "set".

Robert

2-39 Shift: A shift is the action of one or more off players who, after a huddle or after taking set positions , move to a new set position before the ensuing snap.

Robert, how are you thinking it is not an illegal shift?

Fed Rules: A10 could be in motion at the snap, but he must be at least five yards deep if he did not estabilish himself as a back. Sounds like you have an illegal shift.

If he is set, but not yet set for one second, he is not in motion, and the shift is not completed, thus an illegal shift.

Being 5 yds deep if he didn't establish himself is a quote of the illegal motion rule, not illegal shift.

I concede that this could also be considered illegal motion under 7-2-7. I think the way I would justify the difference is if A10 continues his motion and is not at least 5yards behind the LOS – illegal motion. If he just steps back just as the ball is snapped but does not get set – illegal shift.

We’re probably swatting at knats to argue which – It’s more important we agree this is a foul at the snap. The results are prety much the same.

Because I was using an outdated Fed definition. For a while a 1-player shift pertained only to a move forward.

Under NCAA, this would be a penalty, but illegal motion. We *might* call this a false start and shut it down.

Illegal motion. A player who takes a position as a lineman and then goes in motion must be at least 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage at the snap.

REPLY: For Fed, this could not be illegal motion since the OP implies that A10 had stopped moving but that the snap ensued less than the required one second later. Since he stopped, it was a shift. Since he was not motionless for 1 second prior to the snap, that shift was illegal.

I'm tired, but don't we need at least two people for an illegal shift?

Illegal Motion - 7-2-7-Penalty, verbatim.

Definition of a shift: "...the action of one or more players who. after a huddle or after taking set positions, move to a new set position before the ensuing snap."

7.2.6: "After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head or body for at least one second before the snap."

I'm calling illegal shift.

REPLY: Hawkeye...in NCAA yes, but in Federation rules, movement by one or more to new set positions constitutes a shift.

Guys -

I could see where case play 7.2.7(b) would support an illegal shift call here, but 7-2-7 actually describes this exact situation:

REPLY: Except that in the original play, the player is no longer moving--he has stopped, but was stopped for less than the required one second. It can no longer be illegal motion in that case since he's not moving. The rule you quote presumes that the player in question is still moving.

I see what you're saying, Bob. And I know we're splitting hairs at this point, but I still think, technically, that that sentence doesn't necessarilly presume that the player has not stopped moving - it technically reads that the player either 1) hasn't stopped moving, or 2) has stopped, but for less than one full second. If it presumed what you say, it would simply read, "and has not established himself as a back by stopping."

I'm sure everyone is taking some valuable knowledge and insight away from this thread, at this point. :)

I think you may be misunderstanding NF:7.2.7. what is says is that a player (to be legally in motion) has to be at least 5 yards behind the LOS at the snap (only when) if he started from any position not clearly behind the line and did not (thereafter) establish himself as a back by stopping for at least one full second..."

If the ball were to be snapped before he was able to reset, establishing himself as a back, his attempted shift is illegal. If he were to be in motion having previously failed to satisfy the requirement of re-setting for a full second, (since he started out from a position not clearly behind the line) then he is illegally in motion.