No one saw it!
 

This happened in last friday (thankfully not to me). What would you have done.

With 25 seconds to go, home team scores to bring the score to 27-28 in favor of the visitors. Home team attempts a 2 point try. On the try the home team runs a hand off up the middle. The wings run in and neither has a spot. Both yell in that they don't have it. In the meantime the runner stands up with the ball approximately 4 yards deep in the end zone. The other 3 officials also state that they did not see how the ball got into the endzone. After approximately 45 seconds, the referee signals that the try was unsuccessful. Thoughts.

As umpire I would hope that I could offer some input as to the runner crossing the line.

If the ball is in the endzone and you don't have anything that killed the play before that I would say it was a score.:confused:

First off, if five or more officials can't see a ball crossing a goal line, we have a problem.

However, all we know in this case is that the ball is in the opponents endzone. Without any further knowledge, the fundamental is that possession of a live ball in the opponents endzone is a score.

Award the two points.

This is a good lesson in what happens when everyone gets too close to the play. Someone has to stay wide and keep the whole play in front of them.

I'm with SouthGARef

I would say this would be more likely when the wings park their butts on the sideline and refuse to come in. You have to move in on a goal line play up the gut!

Has to be a score.

Ouch. Bad situation to get into.

I would have to rule a score, based on the info given.

The wings would have to crash the pile on this play and the U is already there but the R and BJ should stay back to keep a wide field of vision. If everyone is looking at the same thing you're going to miss something.

OK, I thought you didn't want the wings to come in. This is their primary call so they need to. I would call this a TD.

REPLY: I agree with SouthGARef also. If no one saw the runner down in the field of play and all they saw was him in possession of the ball in his opponent's end zone, what else could you do but award a score??

Here’s a similar play that actually occurred in a college game some years ago—1991 I think. This story was presented at the 1995 NASO Summit by Bill Richardson, the Pac-10 referee of the game.

Near the end of the game, UCLA is at USC’s 1-yard line going in for the winning score. On the snap, the QB muffs it. It rolls down his leg where he inadvertently kicks it into USC’s endzone. A mass of humanity ensues. Officials attempt to get to the bottom of the pile. After all but the last two players are pulled off, the umpire reports that there’s no ball at the bottom of the pile?!?! Looking around, R spots a UCLA player, Brian Allen, holding the ball aloft in the back of the end zone dying to celebrate.

What do you do???

Here’s what actually happened: Once the U (Walt Wolfe) could find no ball at the bottom of the pile and they discovered Allen in the back of the endzone, referee Bill Richardson called all seven officials together. They had a player in the back of the endzone with the ball. Richardson wanted to know, “How did he get it?” No one knew. At that point he stepped into the field and signaled TD for UCLA. He announced over the mike, “After searching for the ball, an offensive player was discovered to have it in the end zone. By rule, we have a touchdown.”

That's how he ruled a similar play.

The big question is how could such a thing happen and what could we do to prevent it. waltp sort of hit the nail on the head. In such cases, there’s no need for all officials to attack the pile. If the deep officials (B, F, and S)in this game--obviously a 7-man game--had stayed back they probably would have seen the ball come out of the pile in Allen’s possession. Additionally, they could have been watching for any ‘extracurricular’ activity that might occur. Let one (or two at most) officials dig, another stand above the pile to give the signal. The diggers tell the standing official who has the ball and he signals appropriately.

[Edited to address mbyron's observation.]

My first question is why did the wings rush in if they did not have the ball? Recall the Eli Manning pass from the Super Bowl when Mike Carey came in only to see Eli get loose and Carey had to quickly retreat.

If it was the runner who took the handoff that was four yards deep in the end zone and no one on the crew had any evidence that the ball was fumbled, why would you not allow the score?

Its the old metaphor if you go to bed and wake up the next morning with snow on the ground you can be reasonably certain it snowed.

Carey was a WH not a wing. The wings have to come in on an apparent goal line plunge into the line. It's a critical call and it just can't be done from the sideline. It would be rare that they'd be caught by a fake for more than a second or two, but if they did they can stop. I agree that you don't need all officials within a couple feet of each other, but the wings have to get the call.

Something wasn't right. Then it got fixed. :)

REPLY: In reading through the thread, no one has said to rule the try unsuccessful. For those that might be thinking that, but have not posted, answer this simple rhetorical question: If the Team A coach asked you where (on what yardline) the ball became dead, what would you tell him??

How could it be anything but a TD. As stated, good reason to have the B (or S, F, and B in 7-man) stay back and have some range of vision.

I've had that exact play. A was trailing by with ball at the 1 when they called their last TO with 0:02 remaining. They split both wings all the way to the sidelines then snuck the ball up the middle. There was a huge pile on the goal line. When the U found the ball, it was in A's possession about 6 inches inside the endzone.

Because no one saw it until we found it in the EZ, we called it a TD.

We got in a bit of hot water becasue the L, who was on the same side of the field as the camera, slowly moved in and stuck a foot forward, as if he had a spot. The film was sent to the association asking the commissioner why it was called a TD if he had a spot. In fact, he had no spot, but was hedging in case he needed to act as if he did -- a piece of poor officiating, really.

REPLY: You're right...I meant that it was a UCLA player holding the ball. I'll edit. Thanks.

I remember being taught at a clinic many years ago by an Umpire name of Brian Balliet (back then in the MAC, now in the NFL) about the "big pile of bodies" goal line situations and that the way to handle it was eye contact.

1st eye contact - between the wing guys. 3 possibilities:- one of them is selling a progress spot, one of them is signalling a score or both have no clue.

2nd eye contact - between the Umpire and the two wing guys. If the Umpire sees both wing guys giving (what Balliet described as) the "Forrest Gump" stare back at him, then he knows they got nothin' and he has to start digging for the ball.

Seeing the Ump digging will trigger the Referee to close up to the pile so the Ref can signal the score if the Ump declares the ball is over the goal line. Looks bush-league for an Ump down on his knees to signal.

This mechanic has saved my crew at least half a dozen times in the last 15 years.

First of all, I would never be yelling to anyone that I didn't see what happened. You can communicate to your partners without letting the coaches and fans hear you.

As a wing, you have to set up close to the nearest end on this play, and come in hard if it's going up the middle. Hopefully one of the wings gets a clear look. Sometimes they don't, despite their best efforts. That's when it's the umpires duty to extrapolate what occurred. We had a play like this last week in a varsity game, where both of us wings were blocked out. When everyone unpiled, most of the ballcarrier's upper body as well as the ball were in the endzone. Our umpire promptly ruled touchdown. I would note that he knew to take over the call without either of us wings saying a word. After all, we hadn't blown the ball dead, we hadn't shown a spot, and we hadn't ruled touchdown. There's no yelling required for him to know it's his call to make, and if he has to guess, so be it.

The bottom line is the wings need to hustle and do their job, but the umpire has to be ready to make a quick call if we don't.

to add, a responsible Wing should be crashing the pile, but must also be aware of the surrounding area and not crash carelessly incase the runner bounces out wide. by crashing in contol the wing should be able to retreat and keep play in front of them.

In the endzone where we found team A player possessing the ball.

Great advice if you want someone to beat you to the pylon. Wings, stay wide where you belong.

I'll give you a little more information on the original post. The film shows the line judge running in to a spot. Once he gets to this spot he yells that he does not have the ball. He admits he has no spot. The puzzling thing was that he never leaves this spot during the entire episode. He leans over and tries to talk to the umpire. I believe the umpire thought the ball was in a pile at the goal line; but. it was behind him. The back judge stood at the back of the end zone and never speaks a word. The linesman is never seen in the film and verified that he did not see the ball. The Referee spoke to the umpire but no one else. For about the last 15 seconds prior to waving it off, he stands by himself with a, "I think I'm gonna be sick" look on his face. The crew never got together in any way shape or form.

REPLY: Bad time for the back judge to go "stationary" and "mute" on the crew...

Succesful try
 

In Kansas they are pushing extremely hard that on every play and every down the wings stay on the sidelines. On a try where it's going to obviously be for two, my BJ is going to be at the back of the endzone opposite me, the Umpire. So if I'm lined up right side 5 yards off the los, he's going to be left side at the back of the ez. My wings are way out of position to make a call. This will probably be one of those where I'll turn to my wings and just give a subtle thumbs up for seeing the ball cross in clean hands. I won't throw up the signal just hold my thumb up or down in front of me and turn so that one or the other can see my signal.

We've done it this way every year since I started 8 years ago and it works just fine. Most of the time it is very obvious that the runner got into the end zone. Otherwise the wings come running in at the half yard line until they find the ball and give their signal (short or TD). The umpire can definitely help if he knows for sure the ball got in but the signal should still be the wing. It may take some getting used to but it does work and looks much better.

There was one BJ I worked with who had me wishing he came with a 'mute' button.

no speakie englisse

Alright guys... here is the infamous play. Parepat has provided most of the details correctly with an exception or two. You will see the back judge run in (not just stand there), but he never locates the ball carrier.

I am curious... do you think he gets in or not?

When you click on the link, you will find that the quality is bad but underneath the video is an option to "watch in high quality", sometimes it will let you do that and other times it won't. Either way, watch #21 get up in the endzone and the officials' handling of the situation.

I hope it is something that everyone can learn from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s9V7aRFLYc

The LJ comes in to mark a spot, although, according to the posts, he didn't have one. The BJ comes up, but then he takes root so two of the crew are firmly holding their spots although they have no reason to do so. They won't come over to the R to talk, but he won't come to them either. Although there was a lot of confusion, they seem content to discuss this at a distance with the teams right in the middle of the discussion. This crew looked like they didn't even try to get this right.

After looking at the u-tube video several times, it appears the ball carrier #21goes into a pile, and the pile goes down, after which #21 resurfaces in the EZ. Without knowing what was being said between the two wing men, who were obviously talking to each other, it's hard to know what was being discussed.

Based on the results of the play, it appears at least one of them had him down before the goal line. The fact that neither left where they were standing, suggests where they were standing was the spot, which was shy of the goal line. If anything one, or both wing officials, should have "sold" their spot a lot harder.

As previously stated in earlier posts, the linesman could not find the ball and did not have a spot. He is standing at the spot (why, we don't know) and asking the umpire where the ball is. The line judge is never seen in this video. The other official near the goal line is the umpire. The line judge also did not see the ball nor have a spot.

1. Why are the officials standing 8 yards apart with the teams in between them while they figure out what happened?

2. Why are there 2 coaches all the way out in the middle of the field. They should be off the field and not closer than the 25 yard line, but they are in the middle of the field on the 2 yard line. That is approximately 58 yards away from where they should be. I hope there were 2 sideline warnings issued.

No sideline warnings were issued. I will say this... the one thing that the video does is seem to speed up time. By this, I mean that the drama surrounding the situation made everything seem to last at least twice as long.

Keep in mind that this is a rivalry game that has seen the winner go to the playoffs each of the last 4 years while the loser has stayed home (eventhough it is week one game).

I know that doesn't mean much in the eyes of the officiating world, but as everyone sat and waited it felt like an eternity waiting for a call. As none was made, both coaches reacted like coaches do and wanted to take charge as no one on the field seemed to want to. I don't know of anyone who would sit quietly and watch this thing unfold the way it did. Sideline warning or no sideline warning. Besides, a penalty at that point wasn't going to make a difference. The game would be decided by the decision that everyone was waiting for.

Is this an instance where, as a wing, you'd either cheat in a bit at the snap or come in hard to make sure you get a better view? I know you don't want to get caught too far in if they spring a trick play and the ball gets pitched back wide for some reason, but if it's obvious they're going up the middle and this is a key play, would it be acceptable to come in earlier and farther than you might normally as a wing on a goalline situation? EDIT: I see this has been covered, but not conclusively remedied. Some say yes, some say you don't want to get caught suckered if the ball goes wide. Both seem valid. I guess I'm going to squint and try to keep my eyes on that ball as best I can and maybe cheat in a bit, but not far enough that I can't get back.

Still, somebody's got to see it, you'd hope. If you see leather and see his knee down, there you go, call him down and be done with it. But you'd better be sure. This video is kind of inconclusive.

So what exactly is being over 50 yards from where you are supposed to be do?

I thought there were 30 seconds left in the game. How does that down decide the game if there are 30 seconds left?

Makes you feel in control.

Which is what most coaches seem to be all about anyway.

/gross generalization

Do any of you believe that the coaches actions on this play had any impact on the officials complete mismanagement of this play? Who exactly should have been dealing with the coaches, the linesman holding a phantom spot for no reason, the backjudge with his finger up his *ss, or the referee who chose not to talk to his crew. The coaches were the least of the problem on this fiasco.

Who deals with the coaches if all 5 officials get together under any other situation (weird rule or something)? Are the coaches allowed 50 yards out on the field under that situation too?

Think about it, these guys were almost 58 yards away from where they should have been. The field is only 53 1/3 yards wide. They were farther from where they should have been than the field is wide. They weren't 2 steps out on the field. There is no way this isn't 2 sideline warnings, and there is no way it isn't a USC foul if a coach who is out there says anything bad to the officials.

OverAndBack:
I've seen quite a few sort distance plays from the sideline where there is no ways the LM or LJ (but fortunately usually only one per play) can not see the ball and ball carrier due to the surge of bodies.
I don't think pinching in a few yards in going to help anyways, so I would say stay on the sideline.

Personally - on the high res video I would lean towards the ball carrier being in the EZ. Really hard to see, but just as he is going down, it looks to me that he is at about the 1/2 yards line and falling forward.

LDub...

You've got this thing nailed. Had those coaches who, to that point, have probably spent over 3000 hours preparing their teams for the season and that game in particular, stayed on the sideline and just let these officials, who obviously had great control over the situation, do their job, this situation would have ironed itself out.

The fact is that BOTH coaches were on the field AFTER it was quite clear that the officials were not doing their jobs properly. What if the officials weren't blowing the whistle at the end of plays and allowing players to be injured? Are the coaches suppose to stay in the coaches' box as well? (only a maximum of three of them, I know)

And God forbid if one of the coaches said something bad during this situation, as you would have to prove who was in charge by tossing the yellow hanky in the air.

Indeed, both coaches should have been flagged. Offsetting penalties. Move on.

And sure this play didn't affect the outcome of the game, as there was 30 seconds left to play while neither team had any timeouts left. What the officials do never affects the outcome of the game. It is always what the coaches and players do; NEVER the officials. Just ask Norv Turner.

One thing you are not correct on in your assessment of the situation is your claim that the coaches were 58 yards from where they were supposed to be. I am sure you just forgot to use the Pythagorean theorem to figure out that the coaches were at most 36 yards from the coaches' box.

For what it is worth, I have done both jobs and have a tremendous amount of respect for officiating and the passion that many professionals hold toward the vocation, but please don't try and tell me that both parties have equal parts invested in the outcome of getting this call right or wrong… and that as a coach, I am suppose to sit by passively and let this thing unfold. Once the call is made in this situation, the game is as over. I can’t wait for a conference, I can’t hope for an onside kick. At that point, the only chance to win that game is to have the official signal touchdown—something that both coaches realized and compelled them to enter the field of play much to your chagrin.

I believe that doing anything else would be considered an attempt at trying to influence the call of an official - Unsportsmanlike Conduct. (9-8-1 b)

Yep... you are right. Throw the flag. Just do me a favor, tonight, every time a coach yells, "he moved!" or "holding!"... throw the flag. Let me know how your night goes. Good luck getting games in the future.

Yes, that would have happened. The officials talked and decided what happened. The same would have happened without the coaches on the field.

What exactly did they not do properly? Ideally one would like the decision made in less time but that doesn't mean anything was not done properly.

Going out to the middle of the field and arguing = USC. Maybe even flagrant.

The penalties wouldn't offset, both would be enforced.

So I guess your team lost. Would you have been ok with declaring the game over at that point? I'm sure you wanted those 30 seconds to try to score.

And running out on the field accomplishes what?

So you would be ok with the officials walking off the field with 30 seconds left as the game is over? I would think a coach that didn't suck would try to score and win instead of saying that the game was over.

LDUB:

Where to even begin...

They say it is not fair to enter a battle of wits with an unarmed man, but hey, as you proved, I don't obey the rules.


First of all, my team and I received an apology from the covering official on the play. Therefore, I would say they didn't get it right. Beyond that, everyone who responded on this thread seems to agree that if the ball carrier ends up in the end zone with the ball and no one saw at least a knee down then it should have been ruled a good conversion. I was there. No one saw a knee down and no one said they did. Once again, it seems as though they didn't get it right.

You claim that the officials would have come to the same conclusion with or without the coaches on the field. Are you sure about that? Take a look at who is standing right next to the Referee when he makes the call… that's right... it is the coach from team B. What did he say? Is it not possible that he influenced the referee, since the referee wasn't huddling with his crew?

Dead ball multiple unsportmanlike conduct penalties would be marched off in both directions at the free kick line which would essentially mean that they would "offset". Before you hurt yourself typing, I know the difference in semantics, but the end result is "offset." Most people in the real word would know what I was saying without trying to play the role of the Philadelphia lawyer. Even the umpire in charge of marching off the penalties would agree with me and likely save himself the 30 yard trip back to where he began.

You use semantics in your next argument too. There is 30 sesonds left. We are down one point and have to kick off. What are the odds that we win that game? Less than 1% chance I would say. If we had gotten the call in our favor, what would our odds be then? Would those odds have increased by over 95%? I am quite sure. That is what I mean by "game over." {We tried the onside kick and didn't get it. And remarkably, we lost} If you don't agree with my logic, please don't go to Vegas and try and make a living. You won't make too much money trying to hit on 19 or 20 while playing blackjack.

Then there is the point that I suck as a coach. Maybe that's true. You are only as good as your last game (We won that one by one point). It’s open to interpretation. I am sure that the nine county/area coach of the year awards that our staff has won over the past five years would be no indication of our ability to coach...not to mention the fact that we have the three best records in the history of the school including an undefeated season last year.

To question the antics of the coaches given the situation is akin to asking what color the curtains were inside the house that burnt down.

Why don’t you step off the field for a year and into the coaches’ box. Remember, I have done your job, are you sure you can do mine?

Take your time working the math on the Pythagorean theorem. It can be real tricky.

http://media3.vindy.com/img/highscho...coach_t120.jpg
Mathews coach Jim Parry said he was told by the officials that no one in a striped shirt saw Jackson cross the goal line with the ball.

“It was tough for the officials, they didn’t see it, nobody saw it. My argument was if nobody saw it why does it go against us,” Parry said.

“They just said ‘We didn’t see it,’ so he doesn’t get the score.

“A whistle blew when our kid was standing in the end zone. They didn’t see it, it’s not their fault, I don’t know the ruling on it, but it was an unfortunate situation.”


That Jim Parry guy, he seemed like the reasonable sort right after the game.

What is your point? I haven't discussed if it was a touchdown or not.

All the more reason to not allow them on the field in the first place.

Actually we were talking aboout sideline warnings. Depending on how many times it had been called during the game the penalty could have been 0, 5, or 15 yards on each team.

And no, I'm not a Philadelphia Lawyer. Saying dead ball USC fouls offset is complety wrong. Some people will beleive that and then on a try they will have the peanlties offset instead of enforcing them both, one of which would be half the distance to the goal line instead of 15 yards.

So the game wasn't over after the try. Your team still tried to win. Obviosly they were losing with not a lot of time left therefore their chances of winning were not very high.

Maybe you would have the 4 best records in the history of the school if you played the last 30 seconds of every game :rolleyes:

No thanks.

If you really want to hear what was said to the reporters after the game there is an audio clip...

From the Warren Tribune website:

http://extras.tribtoday.com/football...dio/week01.asp

Again, Our players and coaches have utmost respect for officials and even the officials in this game. I do believe it was an honest mistake, but a mistake nonetheless.

If you will listen to the entire audio clip, I hope you agree that we tried quickly to put everything in perspective with our players.

The coach from the other team and I joke about the situation all the time. It's not the end of the world, but at the same time it was hard locker room to address that night. As I said before, I just hope people on this site learn form it, so that if something similar happens in the future, they will have the tools to make an informed desicion.

Communication among the crew is paramount in any situation where there is doubt. I had a game several years ago. Team A was riding a 39 game losing streak. They scored late in the game (less than a minute) and were down by one. They decided to go for 2. The play was a quick short pass over the middle that was low. It clearly skipped before the diving receiver scooped it up. The BJ was screened out of the play. The U turned and saw it (as did I at R). He immediately signaled incomplete. The two wings who came in and were looking only at each other at this moment were about to signal something. I started shouting NO, NO, NO to the them. To my complete horror as they looked at each other, they nodded and signalled a TD. The crowd went wild thinking the streak was about to end. I had to break the news to the very unhappy coach. They did recover the ensuing onside kick, but were not able to score. The place was going nuts as we left the field. As luck would have it the school was locked and we had to wait to enter the locker room. We waited for an eternity. During this time a player from the losing team eventually came up to me. He identified hinself as that receiver. He told me that I was right and the ball did in fact hit the ground before he caught it. I thanked him for his honesty and told him that he had a great deal of class. I then asked him if he would mind announcing that to the 5,000 people still yelling at me!:) Years later I was working an adult flag game. I was downfield and ruled a no catch on a low pass. The receiver came up to me and said, "Do you remember me? I was that receiver in the high school game were you ruled a no catch." I told him that I did and he replied, "That's twice you were right. I've got to stay away from you!"

Just not the ones on this forum, apparently.



We kid, we kid.

Coach, nobody tries to get it wrong. We all try to get it right. We all make mistakes. We hope they don't cost someone a game. Sometimes they do.

It's a great game, but it's not a perfect one, and never will be.

You are kidding right? You can't get the play call ruling right but you are going to get the sideline warning on this? Seems like a recipe for disaster imo.

I don't do football, but I know that if I kick a call or we as a crew miss a rule on the basketball floor and the coach comes to the end of the bench to chew on me/us I will give him *some* latitude and I sure as heck aint gonna hit with a "coaches box" warning or tech unless he goes bananas and shows us up... different story and one I have to address.

Case in point... I had a game where I am the referee and one of my umpires hits his whistle once the ball is live after a timeout and sprints over to me frantically saying he has a technical foul as he has 6 players on the court. I immediately look and I only see 5 of his players. The coach starts to protest and I tell him to be calm for a minute... I take the co-official in question far away from the benches and instruct my other official to watch the players. We discuss it and I say I only counted 5. He insists that one ran off the sidelines as he ran over to me. I can't convince him there were not 6 and I don't know for sure that one did not leave so we assess the Technical foul as he made the call. I tell him to go administer the the free throws while I deal with the coach. Coach is waaaaaaaay not happy and he vents. Because I think he may be right I let him have at me allowing some things to be said that would have gotten him a "T" right away under different circumstances but he needs to vent and he is not in his coaches box. If I whack him here, I am gonna have to toss him and make a bad sitch worse. However, he does not stop there and his clip board suddenly slams into the floor due to his thrusting it that direction... now we have to give him a "T" and he knows it. Game ended without any more probs. Two weeks later I see him and he compliments my handling of the situation and completely agreed with the "T" I assessed directly to him.

Pouring salt in coaches wounds is not smart. Rule Book officiating sometimes accomplishes salt in the wound and you need to use people skills at this point and use the book as a guideline.

Can I nominate this for all time greatest 1-line quote on this board?

There is a difference between being 3 feet out of the box in basketball and coming out to the middle of the field on the goal line in football. Also, a sideline warning has no penalty for the first one. Coming out to the middle of the field isn't acceptable.

Your whole thing about maybe getting the call wrong and allowing someone latitude doesn't even apply to this situation as there were coaches from both teams all the way out there while the officials were discussing things before a call had even been made.

And yes, it should be a USC foul if a coach is out there arguing. In basketball if you want to give the coach latitude that is fine. He is in the box and you let him say a few bad things, or maybe he is out of the box but you let it go. But leaving the box by 30 feet (I think that distance in BB is equitable to how far away these guys were from the team area in the FB game) and arguing...I don't see how that is not a technical foul.

We had an interesting game this week. We were down 17 points with 30 seconds left to go. I did what Ldub said. I used all 3 timeouts and ran our two minute offense. We still lost. I will try again next week.

My God, what a clusterf**k.

I am a WH and I guarantee you that once the wings and umpire were looking at each other with a clueless look on their face, I would've been grabbing officials and having a conference away from the players, probably back at about the 10 yard line.

I've been grooming a crew member to be the WH in case I'm ever injured or cannot work on a Friday night. Like I told him last week, one thing you always have to give is at least the illusion that you are in charge and are in control. This guy stood there with his thumbs up his backside. I would've been grabbing officials, pulling them to the side, and having a conversation in private. I did that last week on a simple false start / encroachment that certainly didn't have the bearing this did on the game -- but with 4 flags on the field, you'd better talk and I don't talk with players in earshot.

Right or wrong, I also tell my wings to make a call in this situation immediately if the umpire can't help. Right or wrong, MAKE A CALL. The reality is, look at this play -- there's no way ANY of us can tell definitively if the runner got in or not. The camera is not straight down the goal line, and even if it was, it's the same look that the wings got, which was nada. Would there be a video on YouTube if the L simply got a spot and signaled "no good" right away?

If you want to get the small stuff while screwing up the big stuff have at it and good luck. You seem to think that is what needs to be picked up here so I will not try to convince you otherwise.

Let's say there's a blarge on a play with 3 seconds left in the game, tie score. Both coaches run out to the free throw line to argue.

No technicals?

Hey, don't sweat the small stuff.

I did not say don't take care of the situation... my crew would get them back to the sidelines and prob no technical... But these situations are not the same because the coaches are always within about 45 feet of the action they can see what is traspiring between the officials where as in football you have no idea what is going on if you are over 25 yards from what is going on... Also, in basketball we rarely have long discussions on plays... if there is a blarge and both officials signal by rule its a double foul and we move on. In this sitch the crew is bumbling around for an inordinate amount of time and no one knows what is going on...remember the game outcome hinges on what they decide...lets worry about that vs a warning... apples and oranges... but like I said if you guys wanna dig for boogers have at it...

The coaches in this play are standing down there trying to find out what the call is going to be while the crew has there thumb in their butt... lets concentrate on getting the stuff that really matters before we worry about a sideline warning...

You summed up in one eloquent (eyes of the beholder) phrase what I was trying to do in paragraphs... great lesson in brevity, to be sure.

I didn't even read the rest of your post. How is that not a T? Both coaches run on the floor and no fouls? That is crazy. The guy on the far bench isn't moving to the division line out of bounds, he is running to the free throw line further from his bench.

I think the definition of not taking care of the situation is allowing the coach of the team occupying the bench away from the action to run out to the opposite free throw line to argue a call.

Like I said, this is not likely to happen, but if you butcher a game deciding call so bad that you are all standing around and no one knows what is going on, the last thing I am going to worry about is that the coaches are out trying to figure out what in hell we are finally going to decide... we are going to have to agree to disagree but I am still baffled that you think this is the important take away from this thread.