Pause before snap - each hand?
 

Please answer this for any & all codes you're familiar with and in which it applies. Does the requirement of a clear pause after touching and optionally adjusting the ball before snapping it apply separately for each hand that touches it?

With the other requirements for snap/scrimmage met, A1 puts his right hand on the ball and his left hand on the ground near it in the neutral zone. After adjusting the ball briefly with his right hand to get the laces where he wants, A1 pauses with his right hand still on it. Then in one motion he snatches the ball with his left hand, using it alone or both hands to snap it without further pause. Legal?

Robert

By the book legal or not, this is not one that I would have a flag on the ground for. I see no advantage gained in any way and I would not be that picky for something so minor.

By the book, without looking in the book, I'd say technically speaking it would be a foul at any level.

Centers/Snappers do a lot of things that technically could be a foul--move their hands, push the ball forward a bit before snapping it, etc..
99.999% of the time it is NOTHING. Keep the flag in your pocket/belt and let the game go on !

Thanks for the responses. I was asking from a coach's POV, not an official's. Just wanted to have 1-hand and 2-hand snaps possible without a tell.

Robert

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

OL must be set for a second prior to the snap. I would extend that that include the rotation of the ball, since the hand is moving. We don't allow other OL to move their hands without resetting for a second.

CANADIAN RULING:

If the left hand on the ball prior to the snap? If so, then yes. If not, he moved prior to the snap and there is no listed exception for the snapper to move early.

I would not teach my center to use this method. It is illegal and I would not want to set up a situation where I would be risking a flag on every play. Most officials will give the center some leeway however, if they think the center is doing this move to get a jump on the defense, flags will start to fly.

Why risk this, coach? You won't get a flag everytime, but you won't be happy when one comes, and you could have avoided it.

I have in mind a formation (not for just occasional use, but the basis for the offense) where the QB is sidesaddle and getting the ball snapped onto his dominant hand, scooping it in with the other, but the ball can also be snapped thru to the deep backs. To snap to the QB, I'd want the snapper to use one hand, rotating the ball during the snap so as to slap the broad side of the ball against the palm of the QB's dominant hand. To snap deep, I'd like the snapper (these will probably be children) to have the option of a 2-hand snap. But I don't want to tip the defense as to which kind of snap is coming -- i.e. to the QB or deep.

I'm also interested in the possibility of what's sometimes called the "sugar snap" in the single wing, where the snap to the FB or TB may be with the right hand, and the angled snap to the blocking back/quarterback is with the left. Again, the idea is not to tip the play.

I find that kids often stand too close to the ball and tend to snap too high and short, but they're off balance if their feet are too far back unless they put one hand on the ground. That leaves the other hand free to snap the ball. But there are times they might want to get that second hand on the ball too.

I think the sidesaddle stance will make for an easier C-QB exchange, because the QB won't have to absorb shock with elbows & shoulders, and even if they do fumble the ball will land where the offense will be more likely to recover it. Plus this way the QB can look directly at the fly man coming at him in pre-snap motion for the fly (jet) sweep, for which the timing, footwork, and hand work for the handoff will be much easier than if the QB has to spin around. Plus, standing sideways the QB has a quicker getaway fading back to pass; it's like the way Bernie Kosar cocked his foot, more more so.

Robert

That's what I wanted to know, but on what basis is it illegal? Does the requirement of a clear pause apply to each hand separately? Or is it as Juggling Referee implied, illegal motion? In USAn rules, is it a false start for moving before the snap begins after placing a hand on or near the ground?

Or does the motion of the ball begin so quickly after the hand moves (the hand being close to the ball to begin with) that either nobody would see it as occurring before the snap, or if they did see it, would consider it to have complied with the spirit of the rules regarding snapping the ball? The same as you wouldn't try to see if the snapper's shoulder, elbow, or head is moving an instant before the ball?

Robert

The best way to explain something like this to a coach and have them understand the answer is to ask the follwing question, "Why do you want to do this?" Therefore, why do you want your center to snap that way?

In the National Federation (High School) rules, 7-1-3-c says that it is a snap infraction (ball remains dead, 5 yard penalty on the offense) if "Following the ready for play and after touching the ball, the snapper shall not...fail to clearly pause before the snap."

It's hard to rule on this without seeing it, but it seems that the play you envision is illegal. Some officials might let it go - maybe most would, but you run the risk of if being flagged. If it is flagged, you really have no arguement so you're taking a risk if this is what you teach.

I'm not a coach so maybe it's worth a shot, but you may have to throw it out in the middle of a game if it gets called. Will your center be able to adjust?

So you're reading that as, "Following the ready for play and after [each instance of] touching the ball...", or, "Following the ready for play and after [the last] touching [of] the ball...." I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but it could also be read as, "Following the ready for play and after [the first] touching [of] the ball...." However, that last reading would make it legal for A1 to touch the ball, then after being called off the line for signals, to snatch-snap the ball on resuming the formation -- which I doubt is intended by Fed!

I doubt there'd be time to teach a backup technique "in case they rule this illegal", so the result would be tipping the snap by using one technique for the thrown snap and another for the handed snap. It would, however, be possible to teach either a 2-hand or 1-hand grip for both snaps; it's just that at least for some kids, the method described would be easier to learn.

But then, at the level I'm likely to coach, having officials know the rules is never a given, so you never know what unusual techniques they might flag (or warn against pre-game) even if there's no actual justif'n in the rules! (I still haven't asked whether in Big Apple Youth Football team K can advance their own kickoff recovery, that being very unusual in American codes, but different officials allowed it in 2 different games last year.)

Robert

REPLY: Don't make the assumption that just because officials allowed it in two games last year that the league intends it to be allowed. We've seen videos where HS officials have allowed it -- not by intention but simply because they either didn't know the rule, or were caught up in the chaos of the situation and didn't remember the rule. There's no excuse for either, but just because something is allowed doesn't mean it's intended to be legal.

I agree with the above statement. Most of the time the center does not even know that he is doing anything incorrect. We had this in a crew that I was in and during a dead ball period had a talk with the center and he never did it again. He was not even aware that he was moving the other hand.
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As far as flagging this, I would tend to defer to whether or not it caused the D to encroach. If it does, then bam. Now if it doesn't for the first few evolutions and I can "notice" it, I might make a suggestion to not make it very abrupt and jerky; don't make it look like a snap. But, if this is coached, then it gets messy because the coach will come and say, "I've been doing this all year." True, but I'm going to give both sides an even game TONIGHT!

If that's your only criterion, then no problem because there wouldn't be time for team B to encroach. The hand would be so close to the ball to begin with that because it'd be done in one motion, there'be only a tiny fraction of a second between when the hand began to move and when the ball did. That's the whole point of my question -- no pause for that hand.

It's not as if the point of my idea is to set up a subtle kind of false start with the other hand. But that doesn't seem to be the point of the requirement to pause before snapping the ball after touching and optionally adjusting it. Rather, the point of the rule seems not to have to do with the defense's reacting spuriously or too soon, but reacting too late. The point seems to be to put the defense on notice as to when the ball is liable to be snapped. The snapper isn't allowed to start fiddling with the ball and then sneak in a snap, such that team B can't tell which motion of the ball actually puts it in play. Neither is the snapper allowed to position himself near the ball and just snatch it to snap it. But what I have is a case that's arguably either way, where one hand is used to touch and optionally adjust the ball, and then after a clear pause the hand that wasn't touching it is used to snap it. Team B is put on notice that the ball is liable to be snapped because a team A player has a hand on it and the movement of the ball has stopped.

Robert

Congrats on being creative...

However there are probably a ton of reasons you dont see the formation and the subsequent snaps you describe.

I have refereed a ton of youth games. A lot of times coaches make things too complicated...If your are talking kids especially younger ones (12 and under) I recommend keeping things simple, the more complicated you make the plays the less likely they will be executed well..

Robert, why do you want your center to snap in that manner? It's sometimes difficult to give an answer as to whether or not something could be ruled a false start without seeing, however answering that question will put you one the right path. For example, are you trying to throw off the defense? Are you trying to draw them offsides? Or is this simply a faster more secure method of snapping and, if that is the case, you should be doing it on every down.

As others have said it IS illegal. As a 35 year umpire I'm going to assume that some coach was trying to find another way to gain any advantage he can (legal or illegal).; So my reaction is to not throw the flag but to go to the snapper and tell him that the technique will not be further allowed, so don't do it again.
And BTW, I would not consider the action to be an illegal motion or snap infraction. By the description it is a false start.

I also want to comment on this judgement. Just because a D lineman doesn't encroach doesn't mean he can't be affected by an illegal action of the offense. When you are waiting for a snap and you see that the offense has not yet gotten set LEGALLY you have a tendency to keep a bit relaxed.
By allowing the offense to consistantly violate a rule you are making the defensive player play to your set of rules vs the rulebook.

But that's the point -- I think my way will actually make it simpler for young players to learn football. I have an article on the general scheme (not emphasizing beginnners). I think that an inexperienced quarterback would be able to learn this way of taking the snap and backing out easier, and it should make the fly (jet) series much easier, provided you're willing to do it in just one direction. It also allows the snapper to snap head up and still hit either of a pair of backs with a running start, just by lobbing it down the middle for them to run on to.

I was actually looking to put together an offense with a lot of deception but very little ballhandling. Single wing type deception without the spins and handoffs that require such practice on footwork & timing.

So what I have in mind may look complicated to an experienced follower of football just because it's different from what you're used to, but for someone who doesn't know much football I think it'd be simpler than the common forms.

Robert

The separate action of the two hands doesn't necessarily go with my Horse Fly system, but was more of a general question regarding the ability to snap to various positions in the backfield comfortably without tipping it in advance. Actually it would be better for my system for the snapper to learn one grip and use it for all snaps, so even as the snap wa made s/he wouldn't be tipping the play. But that may not be feasible with kids given the skill and amount of practice time. More to the point, I was asking for formations like the single wing where the snap might go in several directions, but where the snapper might want to use a 1-handed snap for the fullback or tailback, but be unable to feed the blocking back with just that one hand. It might be a sharply angled snap to the right, for which the snapper would have to use the left hand, with or without the right hand. And I've seen that young snappers will have a freer swing of their dominant hand to snap deep if they rest their non-dominant hand on the ground. But that hand can be very close to the ball.

So the snap can't be the same on every down, because it depends where the snap is going, but it's not to draw the defense offside. It'd be much too fast to draw them offside anyway, because once that left hand moved, it'd be just a tiny fraction of a second before it contacted the ball and started to move it. There's no pump faking or hand faking; the deception is not about when the snap occurs, but where the ball goes. Technically, the snapper's left hand is "beating the snap" by a tiny bit. It would be of the same degree of infraction as the snapper's starting to dorsiflex his head an instant before starting the ball's movement.

Robert

If you are planning on running the single wing with 12U the snap is going to be the least of your problems. In a true single wing there shouldn't be all that much space between your spin back and your halfbacks. There is no quarterback. There is n reason to teach other than a conventional snap since you are only talking about 3 to 5 yards.

Then I guess you haven't seen how some are also snapping to the blocking back way over there. Coaches who do it say the other team never picks up on which hand the snapper is using, but I wouldn't count on that!

If I use my "horse fly" idea, all this probably goes away, because the center really ought to be able to either do all snaps 1-handed or to rest both hands on the ball, one high and one low, and snap 1-handed to the QB while pushing off the ball with the other.

Robert