Mike Carey
 

Great job!

But leaving that one second on the clock was silly. A slow finger on the stopwatch would have been much better than requiring the final knee.

In reviewing game video there appeared to be two seconds on the clock at the end of the fourth down play.

To have ended the game with time remaining would not have fit the character of Mike Carey. Take a look at this http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80678c74 then think about it.

I have to say Mike Carey embodies the character and precision that each of us should carry every time we step on the field.

No reason to make them take a knee!
:mad:

You cannot just arbitrarily end the game on a second on the clock. People would have complained there was a conspiracy if they did not play that last second.

Peace

Can you say, "Joe Pisarcik"?

Does the NFL have an equivalent to the NFHS rule?

Rule 3 Periods, Time Factors and Substitutions
SECTION 1 LENGTH OF PERIODS
ART. 3 A period or periods may be shortened in any emergency by agreement of the opposing coaches and the referee. By mutual agreement of the opposing coaches and the referee, any remaining period may be shortened at any time or the game terminated.

In a Fed game, if I see the coaches heading for mid-field to shake hands, I accept that as their agreement to terminate the game. My agreement is demonstrated by leaving the field.

ok at what point do we go ahead and quit letting the game end with time on the clock...2, 4 8 25 seconds?? I somewhat agree that if the pats just wanted to go in that it could be over, however why deprive the Giants of the feeling of getting to take a knee, with the knowledge that they have just won the super bowl...

This is the Super Bowl, not the intramural semi-finals. Do it RIGHT!

And, since I didn't hardly notice the crew, they must have done a good job.

I agree, I think the crew did a real nice job as I barely noticed them as well. For once, I thought the Super Bowl was actually, well, a super (entertaining) game!

Once question for my 'murrican brothers about the "Too Many Men" (Illegal Sub.) though.

In Canadian Amateur in a similar situation where the player is high tailing it to his bench and he gets off close to (before) the snap, as long as he did not participate in the play, there's no call. At CFL I believe the situation gets covered by the penalty for having 13 guys (1 too many) in the huddle. Do you guys really nail teams if they're within a half second of a guy touching his sidelines? Is it the same with US Amateur as it is with the NFL? How on earth do you make that call if so?

Thx

REPLY: In Federation and NCAA ball the rules are just as strict as they are in the NFL--if the player running to the sideline doesn't get off before the snap, technically it's a foul for illegal substitution. However, in practical application, most officials handle it the same way you suggest: If the guy is close enough to the sideline to not make a difference, most officials will let it go ("no harm, no foul"). But in the NFL, since the number of players on the field at the snap is a reviewable situation, they have to call it strictly, the same way they would for a runner being inbounds or out-of-bounds on a tightrope down the sideline. They really have no choice in the NFL. It's got to be called by the book.

I heard the the FOX announcers say the NFL wanted the last second played. Therefore, it was not Mike Carey's choice.

Remember, the Cleveland beer tossing incident and the disputed field goal this season again with Cleveland. Both those incidents even though the outcome was not in doubt, the league made them play it out. I know for a fact in the beer tossing incident it was NFL control in New York that dictated the game be completed.

Note the portion in the rule that says "...in an emergency...". In the Super Bowl (if this rule even applied) or in most all NFHS games there is not an emergency. The game may be a blow out or a team has conceded but the game clock should expire before it is considered completed. We do not start a HS game with 11:59 on the clock, so let's play the entire prescribed time unless it truly is an emergency or a state has a game ending procedure.

Way to go, Mike & Crew
 

I was proud that the crew "finished" the game.

The clock went from :02 to :00, and then up to :01 left. What was up with the timer?

For a viewer, there was enough confusion of time remaining. For the Patriots, if you don't play the final second, you deprive them of the last snap, and a potential scoring play (although not very likely).

Officials are to be the arbiter of the rules, one of which is accurately timing the game. I commend Carey for clearing the field and having NY snap the ball to end the game properly. If some want to criticize him for doing so, it's just another case of Monday morning armchair officiating. If he didn't do this, could you imagine the possible second-guessing today?

The TV clock and the actual clock are not always in sync. And if you pay really close attention, you will see time be corrected when they come back to the TV clock because it is not accurate with the stadium clock.

Peace

If you will notice, the sentence that mentions terminating the contest does not contain the words "in an emergency".

End of the third quarter, in fact (IIRC), the TV clock didn't run until after the play was over. There were something like 6 seconds left when the last play started, and the TV clock didn't run, and then it did after the play was over.

But, as was mentioned, that clock isn't official. It doesn't matter what that clock does, except that it tends to confuse the home viewer, who thinks that it's the Word of the Lord.

can someone explain why the clock was continuing to run while a crew member ran up to carey in the 4th? quarter?

I agree with the common interpretation/enforcement here. Unless the player is still in the middle of the field and within a step or two I usually let it go. I think that this situation is just that case, the player was only a step and half away. They should not be able to review situations like this, leave to official's discretion. And I'm a colts fan and they do it all the time.

Maybe I'm the contrarian here, but I tell my wings to make sure the guy gets off or they should flag it.

At the NFL level, I'm thinking, yeah, they should.

But at the high school level, if I'm a wing and the guy's even with me and busting his *** to get off at the snap, I don't think I'm calling it. If I cheat in because it's a lower-level game and the field seems really wide for the kids playing and the play is on the far hash, as long as he gets behind me, he's fine.

Of course, that's just me and the guys I've worked with in the past. That's not to say that's the best way, just a way they (and I) are comfortable with.

The clock at the top of your screen was NOT the official clock.

As such, it routinely started and stopped at the wrong time and was constantly being reset.

I get films of my crew working every year. I remind my crew to count the players and make sure they are giving the visible signal on each play for 2 reasons - one is so we are communicating with each other well and the other is so it can be seen on the video.

Maybe in a freshman game I feel we could get away with this, but on Friday night there are a few cameras taping the game and both coaching staffs will be watching later. I'll be darned if I'm going to let something like this go only to have it show up on the film later. You cannot possibly argue with the flag with the player still on the field.

I'm happy to let crews do whatever they like here - I'm just telling you how my crew handles it.

I learned that early on, and it's a good point. You never know who is watching. Both of those are good reasons to signal.

Letter of the rule vs. spirit of the rule.

But, I guess if you go by the letter, you'll always be consistent. Fair enough.

Cool.

As for Mike Carey, I thought he handled himself very well the whole game. I don't know why I hadn't noticed that little arm twirl he does when he signals the down after the administration of a penalty before.

REPLY: At one time, if I'm not mistaken, it was not reviewable. Then there was a high-profile mistake (allegedly) where Bill Cowher was running off the field at halftime livid, showing the referee one of those Polaroid shots they take that had their opponent (again, allegedly) with twelve guys on the field. After that, I believe, they made it a reviewable situation.

I gave that example on the other site and I was not completely sure. Now I am surer that was the catalyst for that action.

Peace

I won't even characterize it that way. What *is* the spirit of the rule? That a team can take too much time substituting and still have someone running off the field at the snap as long as the guy doesn't take part in the play?

I had a situation this past season near the end of the half. The team behind had the ball and wanted a timeout at the end of the down. Near the end of that play, the coach signaled to the wing official that he wanted a timeout. The wing official had the play coming toward him so he had to watch the play and stop the clock and dead-ball officiate. When I saw him signal to stop the clock, I looked to the clock and there was :01 left, then it ran to :00. So, we had a TO called with :01 on the clock, of which I had definite knowledge. Seeing :00 on the clock, the home team and coaches started toward the lockerroom. I cleared the field and we put :01 on the clock and ran one more play.

I think we did it the right way.

I reckon the spirit of the substitution rule, as you just expressed it, makes sense. I was speaking of the spirit of the rule that thou shalt not have 12 men on the field.

Which wasn't even the call in question, so I'm wrong.

Illegal substitution, yeah, that's it right there. You took too long. You blew it. I guess that's why it's an illegal substitution penalty and not illegal participation (what one might normally think of as "12 men on the field"). You gain no actual playing advantage when a guy is a step and a half (and I don't even think it was a step and a half) from the sideline and hustling to get off, but an illegal substitution, at this level, yeah, that's exactly right. My bad.

Has there ever been an explanation
 

as to why the 12th player was on the field to begin with? How do you not know in the NFL if you are on the punt return team or not?

Probably the same way as in pee-wees - your coach tells you.

The guy in question went to Akron, not MIT. :)

I do not see that as an NFL rule in the official NFL rule book that I have.

Is this the same coach who tought that his player was allowed to change his call of the coin toss in the air? :D

Just to play devil's advocate here, do you want your wing official watching someone's feet to see if he just barely makes it off the field or not at the snap, OR would you rather he be watching the LOS for the false start that he may miss while deciding whether or not someone made it out of bounds? At the high school level I would be much more concerned about the penalty that could effect the play rather than one that has no bearing whatsoever.

Being the contrarian above, I'll answer.

No, I don't want the wings turning heads and missing play at the line of scrimmage. What I said was I don't want them ignoring it cause the player is only a step or two from the sidelines. If they miss it because they're officiating and the player runs out of their line of sight, fine. We don't have 7 officials in my state.

I also don't mind if someone else gets this if it's obvious (back judge, for example).

I absolutely agree. I can tell you, however, that my crew will not make that call if he is a step off the sideline.

I completely agree. If a player doesn't get off the field this is not my problem to save a penalty for your team. That is the problem of the team and the players. I think officials spend too much time trying to be safe than making a call that can clearly be seen on tape. And in this case, it was very clear on tape that the Giants player was two or three steps on the field when the ball was snapped. But I also agree that I am not turning my head just to make the call and I am not stepping onto the field to not make the call either.

Peace

That's why the wing steps forward onto the field to let the kid get off in time. "He was behind me, coach. I only have eyes in the front of my head."

First of all it is a cop out. Secondly, I want to start on the sideline, not several steps on the sideline. I have also seen officials do this and miss the hiding substitute play as well.

If that is acceptable where you live that is fine, but I would not be the one advocating that practice. Because there are other things you could miss and if you miss a deception play because you had to step foreword, I would rather take the chance of taking the heat for an IP called than missing something bigger because I was not in position.

Peace

One and a half. Maybe two.

http://www.kenn.com/images/giants_12th_man.jpg

Or, slightly harder to see but the best I can do:

http://www.kenn.com/images/giants.gif

Another example of the joke of instant replay.

It was supposed to correct obvious errors.

From the previous posts it appears most officials consider a 12th leaving the field to not be worth much of their bother.

A player one step from being off the field obviously had no bearing on the play as most of you have already agreed.

Can the NFL use a little common sense here?

There you go sensationalizing things again. The NFL rule is as it is partly to remove judgment from the officials. This way, the game is more consistent. Surely players and coaches making millions are accountable for fielding the correct number of players.

The play was properly reviewed and Mike Carey properly threw the flag after review.

If you don't like the rule, then that's fine. (Such fact only shows you don't understand professional football.) But to dis IR? POW.....

This has nothing to do with common sense. The Giants had 12 players on the field no doubt about it. It is against the rules to have 12 players on the field. If they did not make that call, then everyone would have been crying conspiracy or accused the officials of ignoring the rules or purposely going against the Patriots. And even in NF rules and NCAA rules, this would be a penalty as well. In the NF you could make a case for Illegal Substitution not Illegal Participation.

Peace

And there's a huge difference between following the letter of the law in the NFL and the spirit of the law in NFHS. There aren't millions riding on the outcomes of high school games (if there are, we need a cut of that!).

It's the same as letting stuff go in a junior high or freshman game that you'd never let go on a Friday night under the lights, or the difference between a talk-to and a flag.

In a subvarsity game. If the guy's maybe a step from the sideline and can't have a bearing on the play.

The bigger question is how did the wing who's nine feet away from the player running off the field not at least see him out of his peripheral vision? Or if he did, he didn't make the call (I know, he has responsibility for the LOS at that point, but you should be able to see a 12th guy running off the field, sprinting towards you, especially if NY probably would have had to broken the huddle with 12 - maybe not, in all the substituting on a punt play).

Actually that is not entirely correct. The short wing is not mainly responsible for defensive players as the deep wing is in 7 man mechanics. The short wing might not even be focused on the defense in that situation. This would have been better for a deep wing to be focused on and when the ball was snapped might have been difficult to tell from their point of view if the player was off the field. I am sure the officials passed on this because they knew the rule, were not sure and did not want to make a call they were guessing on. Even in a 5 man game the back judge might have been in a better position to actually make this call. In 7 man the deep wings count the defense and would focus more on this player.

Peace

Fair enough.

That's why those guys are in the NFL and I'm in the AZFOA.

I was at the game and, for what it's worth, there was :01 on the stadium clock after the second to last play.

One very interesting play on the Giants winning TD drive. 4th and 1, and Giants runner is downed in bounds. Carey stops the clock, and it looks like there is going to be a measurement. Almost immediately, though, he gets to the spotted ball and eyeballs it and signals to the chains to move, and they start to do so. Takes him a while to signal first down. There is no measurement, from what I saw. (Although I was pretty high up in the upper deck.)

The stadium clock didn't restart until the U made the ball ready to play. I guess that's what would have happened if there had been a measurement, but there was not. Should Carey have rewound the clock once he decided he didn't want a measurement, or, once he stopped the clock, is it correct to wait until ready to play?

Let me first qualify my statement by saying that NFL Timing rules are very different than college and high school rules. Unless there is some major difference, I will address what I am sure about.

If the clock was stopped because the ball was close to a first down, under rules outside of the NFL, you would start the clock on the ready for play. Normally when you stop the clock when the first down is very close, you are either going to measure or award a first down. There was no measurement so if Carey waited until the ready for play to start the clock that sounds correct to me. The NFL does things differently like stopping the clock after a QB sack, but most of their starting and stopping the clock procedures are the same as every other level.

Peace

Thanks. That's interesting. In that circumstance, the mechanic should probably be to try to come to a very firm view whether you are inclined to call for a measurement before stopping the clock. On the other hand, on 4th down you don't want to let the clock run too much in that circumstance, since that would take time off the clock for the other team in the event of a turnover on downs.