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-   -   Illegal Participation, Illegal Touching, Nothing (https://forum.officiating.com/football/39273-illegal-participation-illegal-touching-nothing.html)

BoBo Wed Oct 31, 2007 02:48pm
Illegal Participation, Illegal Touching, Nothing
 
Just feel like throwing out crazy plays at everybody today.

Fed Rules please (if other please note)
4th and 8 from B's48

K punts the ball towards the sideline.

The ball is going to be downed inside B's 5 yard line near the sideline.

K22 is the gunner and is going to down the ball. As the ball is bouncing K22 has unknowingly stepped out of bounds at the 4 and then steps inbounds at the 2 to down the punt at 1 yard line.

Are you going to have a flag at the B's 2 yard line for illegal participation?

Is this now considered illegal touching? Or some other violation or foul?

Or do you just let it go?

Bob M. Wed Oct 31, 2007 03:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoBo
Just feel like throwing out crazy plays at everybody today.

Fed Rules please (if other please note)
4th and 8 from B's48

K punts the ball towards the sideline.

The ball is going to be downed inside B's 5 yard line near the sideline.

K22 is the gunner and is going to down the ball. As the ball is bouncing K22 has unknowingly stepped out of bounds at the 4 and then steps inbounds at the 2 to down the punt at 1 yard line.

Are you going to have a flag at the B's 2 yard line for illegal participation?

Is this now considered illegal touching? Or some other violation or foul?

Or do you just let it go?
REPLY:

Are you going to have a flag at the B's 2 yard line for illegal participation? YES...Spot of the foul is B's 2, but since it occurred during a legal kick play, enforcement will be from the previous spot. Replay 4th down (4/23 from A's 37, if I did the math right)

Is this now considered illegal touching? It is first touching (called 'illegal' touching in NCAA). So B could have theball at their own 1, though doing so would be insanity. Better to penalize A and make them replay 4th down.

Or some other violation or foul? Nothing else

Or do you just let it go? I wouldn't

BoBo Wed Oct 31, 2007 03:07pm
Bob since you are the only one who has replied so far; does he clearly have to leave the field for you to call this. what if he is say shuffling along side the ball and part of his feet are on the line and part are outside the line.

I guess just how particular are you going to be on this type of play.

Just curious as to how close people will call it.

I am sure some will miss the call because you will be so focused on the ball and touching.

JugglingReferee Wed Oct 31, 2007 03:15pm
Canadian Ruling
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoBo
Just feel like throwing out crazy plays at everybody today.

Fed Rules please (if other please note)
4th and 8 from B's48

K punts the ball towards the sideline.

The ball is going to be downed inside B's 5 yard line near the sideline.

K22 is the gunner and is going to down the ball. As the ball is bouncing K22 has unknowingly stepped out of bounds at the 4 and then steps inbounds at the 2 to down the punt at 1 yard line.

Are you going to have a flag at the B's 2 yard line for illegal participation?

Is this now considered illegal touching? Or some other violation or foul?

Or do you just let it go?
CANADIAN RULING:

There are 4 ways to have been OOB legally:
  • a player was blocked to OOB
  • a player tried to block someone, missed, and subsequently ended up OOB
  • slipped to OOB
  • stepped OOB to field a punt or kick-off
There is no indication that any of those events caused K22 to be OOB, so I do have a flag for IP.

If K22 was:
  • offside:
    • Illegal recovery: Restraining Zone flag. Since both the IP (10y) and RZ (15y) are minor fouls, R has to choose which to apply. The R shouldn't even ask, so it'll be R 1D/10 @ R-16.
  • onside:
    • legal recovery, but the IP is still applied: K 1D/10 @ R-11.

JugglingReferee Wed Oct 31, 2007 03:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoBo
Bob since you are the only one who has replied so far; does he clearly have to leave the field for you to call this. what if he is say shuffling along side the ball and part of his feet are on the line and part are outside the line.

I guess just how particular are you going to be on this type of play.

Just curious as to how close people will call it.

I am sure some will miss the call because you will be so focused on the ball and touching.
I'm sure that Team R players play with the intent of staying within the boundaries. Of course you penalize K for being any amount OOB.

Bob M. Wed Oct 31, 2007 03:31pm
REPLY: If his foot just grazed 'white,' I might not call it. But if he clearly steps OOB--particularly if he's avoiding a blocker in so doing--I think you have to flag it.

BoBo Wed Oct 31, 2007 03:33pm
agreed

refbuz Wed Oct 31, 2007 04:03pm
If K is blocked out @ the 4 instead of going out on his own its nothing right?

Jim D Wed Oct 31, 2007 04:12pm
Right. He just has to come back in as soon as possible.

waltjp Wed Oct 31, 2007 07:35pm
And what if the K player is still out of bounds when he touches the ball?

JugglingReferee Wed Oct 31, 2007 08:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltjp
And what if the K player is still out of bounds when he touches the ball?
The ball would to be dead under any rule set. I would think it also has to be an IP flag - possibly for coming inbounds immediatley (sp?) to play the ball.

wisref2 Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:51pm
If he's still OOB and touches the ball, you have nothing except a dead ball. He never returned to the field so you can't have IP. By rule, if the ball touches a player who is OOB, the ball is dead OOB at that spot.

JugglingReferee Thu Nov 01, 2007 01:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisref2
If he's still OOB and touches the ball, you have nothing except a dead ball. He never returned to the field so you can't have IP. By rule, if the ball touches a player who is OOB, the ball is dead OOB at that spot.
Good point. I missed that. Seems kinda unfair to me.

waltjp Thu Nov 01, 2007 02:09pm
There was a similar discussion recently (Can't recall if it was here of another forum) about an offensive player who fumbled just before going out of bounds and whether it was IP if he touched the ball in an attempt to recover the fumble while he was OOB and the ball was in bounds.


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