starting on a yard line

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Place the ball on the hash, place the box on the hash. Now, we know the ball has to go exactly 10 yards for a 1st. Place the ball between the hashes and the placement of the box is very likely to be off, which means the sticks will be off as well. You may well be asking the offense to gain 10 yards and a foot for a 1st down.

Also, if the line to gain is on a hash or your mark, it's much easier to know if you've made the line to gain. It also cuts down on measuring unnecesssarily.

Ok, that makes sense. Additionally, this is also on a play where the runner CLEARLY makes the line to gain, correct? (like by a couple yards or more so the spot doesn't matter in regards to getting the first down)

[MJT]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Ok, that makes sense. Additionally, this is also on a play where the runner CLEARLY makes the line to gain, correct? (like by a couple yards or more so the spot doesn't matter in regards to getting the first down)

No, we only do it on COP or long 1st downs, (plays of 20 yards or more) and as stated above, not when the ball is inside either 20 yard line.

[JRutledge]

The time you do this is on kickoffs, punts, long gains with the first down and any change of possession. We do this all the time and that is that. It works. I have never heard a single coach complain about it. It makes the knowledge of the first down on well marked fields obvious. BTW, most college conferences and the NFL both advocate this practice. Inches or even a half of a yard is not going to make that big of a difference.

Peace

[dumbref]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

You clearly didn't read my post. COP or first downs. Never on second, third, or fourth down. There is no such philosophy then as ten yards is ten yards ONCE THE CHAINS ARE SET.

Well, didn’t I hit the hornet’s nest. You will be surprised to know that my personal opinion on this philosophy is closer to yours than my post may have indicated. I chose this slightly embellished approach (based on a conversation with a co-worker) to drive home a point. Like it or not we live in a world of perception – from coaches, fans and the talking heads. We must use extreme discretion when employing this philosophy, guarding against the impression of incompetence and impropriety. And as you point out, there are times we should never use this philosophy and it is important to explore those times. Thanks for doing that. Are there other times?

Here one of my no-no’s: After a measurement

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by MJT

No, we only do it on COP or long 1st downs, (plays of 20 yards or more) and as stated above, not when the ball is inside either 20 yard line.

Do you do it on incomplete 4th down passes and 4th down plays where the line to gain was not achieved?

[ljdave]

We have started doing this, too and, for the most part, I like it. It helps make us seem competent. However, something still bothers me about it. If the timer lets a few extra seconds run off the clock, we are instructed to correct the timing error. In short my question is, if 5 seconds matters so much, why doesn't 5 inches?

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by ljdave

If the timer lets a few extra seconds run off the clock, we are instructed to correct the timing error.

By whom and under what circumstances are you adding this time to the clock?

The 2006 edition of High School Football Rules by Topic addresses correctable timing errors and states, "The correction procedure applies to obvious errors. The coverage does not authorize attempting to correct trivial or incidental lag starting or stopping the clock. The error must be in an acknowledged discrepancy in the time and does include a slight lag due to human reaction."

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Blue37

Do you do it on incomplete 4th down passes and 4th down plays where the line to gain was not achieved?

In the USAn codes, that reverses A's & B's restraining lines, and at least theoretically the down box and back stick of the chain should go on B's line, which should result in moving them the length of the ball in the case of the incomplete pass. In Canadian codes there's only one "line of scrimmage" so it would not move in case of the incomplete pass; rather, the spotting of the ball would be reversed to keep its foremost point the same.

In 1980 I put the following situation to Brice Durbin at the Fed office in Kansas City. (I kept calling him "Bruce", thinking I was mishearing his name. He was the first Brice I ever heard of.):

3rd down, A's runner carries the ball with its long axis perpendicular to the sidelines to a spot such that it barely gets entirely into the field of play. The ball is spotted according to its foremost point, then made RFP by rotating it with its long axis parallel to the sidelines, leaving the rearmost point of the ball in A's end zone. 4th down, A's legal forward pass is incomplete. Do you now award a TD to B, because the ball's spotted as per the previous down, part of it in A's end zone?

He answered that that's why they tell their officials to always ready the ball in such a way as to be entirely in the field of play. Presumably following the 3rd down run above, the back end of the ball would be used as the rotation point instead of its front.

Situation doesn't arise in Canadian football, where the ball is always readied with its entirety outside either team's 1 yard line, and where there's only one "line of scrimmage" anyway. (Maybe that's why their rules refer to "point" instead of "spot" -- the ball is literally on a geometric point rather than occupying space.) B's restraining line is 1 yard their side of the LOS.

Robert

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by ljdave

In short my question is, if 5 seconds matters so much, why doesn't 5 inches?

Because realistically, as long as you are consistant, those 5 inches don't matter. Does it it really create an advantage for A if you set the chains up on the 30 rather 29 3/4 yardline? No. 10 yards is 10 yards. A needs to go 10 yards for a 1st down, regardless of the line that the chains are set up on.

If your on a well marked field it just looks better, and makes it easier for the wings.

[ljdave]

[QUOTE=refbuz]Because realistically, as long as you are consistant, those 5 inches don't matter. Does it it really create an advantage for A if you set the chains up on the 30 rather 29 3/4 yardline? No. 10 yards is 10 yards.

It creates an advantage for B if they get stopped on 4th down 2 inches from the goal line.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by ljdave

It creates an advantage for B if they get stopped on 4th down 2 inches from the goal line.

Really???

What is B's advantage in your scenario? That they're gaining 34 inches of field position???

[waltjp]

My crew tries to start on a hash mark when practical. Those times include long gains where a first down is clearly achieved, following kicks and after a change of possession. Another thing we try to avoid it placing the ball between the 10 and 11 yard line, which would allow the offense a chance to make a first down inside of the 1 yard line.

When you factor in the inexact science of judging forward progress and then moving the ball to the inbound marks or trying to have the umpire place the ball in line with the wing official's spot when a run ends in the middle of the field a couple of inches one way or the other isn't significant.

Over the course of a game the inches gained or lost for any given team tend to balance out. Excluding goal line situations, it's not very often that A is stopped just short of the goal line.

When you look at the big picture this practice helps the game run smoother. It's easier on the chain crews and is a huge advantage when in determining if a measurement is needed.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by refbuz

What is B's advantage in your scenario? That they're gaining 34 inches of field position???

Inches matter close to a goal line. The loss of a foot or so is a common result of a play from scrimmage. That's why someone specified a ways up in this thread, "outside the 20 yard lines".

Robert

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

In the USAn codes, that reverses A's & B's restraining lines, and at least theoretically the down box and back stick of the chain should go on B's line, which should result in moving them the length of the ball in the case of the incomplete pass. In Canadian codes there's only one "line of scrimmage" so it would not move in case of the incomplete pass; rather, the spotting of the ball would be reversed to keep its foremost point the same.

In 1980 I put the following situation to Brice Durbin at the Fed office in Kansas City. (I kept calling him "Bruce", thinking I was mishearing his name. He was the first Brice I ever heard of.):

3rd down, A's runner carries the ball with its long axis perpendicular to the sidelines to a spot such that it barely gets entirely into the field of play. The ball is spotted according to its foremost point, then made RFP by rotating it with its long axis parallel to the sidelines, leaving the rearmost point of the ball in A's end zone. 4th down, A's legal forward pass is incomplete. Do you now award a TD to B, because the ball's spotted as per the previous down, part of it in A's end zone?

He answered that that's why they tell their officials to always ready the ball in such a way as to be entirely in the field of play. Presumably following the 3rd down run above, the back end of the ball would be used as the rotation point instead of its front.

Situation doesn't arise in Canadian football, where the ball is always readied with its entirety outside either team's 1 yard line, and where there's only one "line of scrimmage" anyway. (Maybe that's why their rules refer to "point" instead of "spot" -- the ball is literally on a geometric point rather than occupying space.) B's restraining line is 1 yard their side of the LOS.

Robert

CANADIAN RULING:

On cases where yards are not gained, the rulebook explicity states that a TD cannot be awarded as the result of this ball movement.

Your statements in red could not be more accurate.