help from LJ

[Cal]

running play past the line. ball goes forward from the runner to a blocker. about three yards. i, being the umpire only see the ball going forward. i have no idea if it was a pass or a fumble. i throw a flag at the spot where the ball becomes loose. after the ball is dead the LJ said that the defender knocked the ball loose and that it was a fumble. we wave off the flag and mark the ball ready for play. The A coach is fine with the call. not so with the B coach, he thought that any ball going forward in the air was a pass.

[BoBo]

Sounds like great communication from your crew and you guys got right.

Sorry B coach.

[refbuz]

Good communication with you and your LJ, but it also sounds like you were ball watching a little. I'm a U and don't think that I could make a call like that unless the runner made a deliberate throwing motion.

If you knew that you were unsure, you probably should have dropped a bag at the spot, then gone and talked to the LJ instead of throwing a flag that you had to pick up. You could have always gone back to the spot and thrown the flag. If it turns out to be nothing, nobody would have known what you thought that you had. It would have just looked like you were bagging another fumble.

[Kirby]

I agree that there may have been a little too much ball watching going on here from the U position, but from a philosophy standpoint on a possible illegal forward pass beyond the neutral zone, I believe the correct mechanic should be to throw the flag then waive it off after a conference rather than conference and then throw the flag.

[Mike L]

I don't throw flags unless I know I have a foul. What would you have done if the LJ came in with no idea either?

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by Kirby

I agree that there may have been a little too much ball watching going on here from the U position, but from a philosophy standpoint on a possible illegal forward pass beyond the neutral zone, I believe the correct mechanic should be to throw the flag then waive it off after a conference rather than conference and then throw the flag.

You're throwing a flag even if your not looking at the sticks?? Are you taking a peak back at the sticks before or after you throw the flag, or do you just go back and look at it afterwards?

I'm only throwing that flag if I am looking at the sticks and its blatantly obvious that he's over the line.

There's rush to throw that foul.

If the QB is rolling away from the sticks, our mechanic (5-man) is to have the U drop a bag at the spot of the pass, then go back to the spot with the R to take a look. We do this because the LJ is not holding the line and drifts dowfield after reading pass. The R & U will take a look, and then decicde if they need to throw a flag or not,

[JasonTX]

If this play was in the area that the LJ had a better angle then you have to defer his judgement. If he don't have a flag then we are going with a fumble. If you're worried about his view on the play, then me personally I'd probably drop a bean bag and then discuss what he saw.

[MadCityRef]

Originally Posted by refbuz

You're throwing a flag even if your not looking at the sticks?? Are you taking a peak back at the sticks before or after you throw the flag, or do you just go back and look at it afterwards?

I'm only throwing that flag if I am looking at the sticks and its blatantly obvious that he's over the line.

There's rush to throw that foul.

If the QB is rolling away from the sticks, our mechanic (5-man) is to have the U drop a bag at the spot of the pass, then go back to the spot with the R to take a look. We do this because the LJ is not holding the line and drifts dowfield after reading pass. The R & U will take a look, and then decicde if they need to throw a flag or not,

The U should be straddling the LOS as he pivots to watch the blocking behind the point of attack (QB scrambling). Plus R should be able to follow QB and get to the spot of throw.

You really want to explain to a coach that you didn't throw the flag because the kid didn't run to the preferred side of the field?

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by MadCityRef

The U should be straddling the LOS as he pivots to watch the blocking behind the point of attack (QB scrambling). Plus R should be able to follow QB and get to the spot of throw.

You really want to explain to a coach that you didn't throw the flag because the kid didn't run to the preferred side of the field?

What in the Wide World of Sports are you guys talking about? The original post clearly said this was a running play. The U is not going to be on the LOS looking to see whether a scrambling QB is behind or beyond the line.

There didn't seem to be any doubt in the OP about the position of the ball. The question was whether it was and actual pass, which was caught by a lineman, or if it was a fumble.

If U was straddling the line of scrimmage, he would have to be behind the blockers! Damn, I'd hope I have enough padding on me if I were doing that.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by waltjp

What in the Wide World of Sports are you guys talking about? The original post clearly said this was a running play. The U is not going to be on the LOS looking to see whether a scrambling QB is behind or beyond the line.

Your right on a running play, as a U I'm looking at the blockers. I could careless about the runner and whether or not we MAY have an Illegal Pass during a running play. I would expect the wingman to have that foul in the described situation. I was merely pointing out another way the the U could have handled the situation(bagging rather than flagging). I only brought up passing scenario in response to the proper mechanic being flagging and waiving it off rather than bagging the spot, then going back and taking a look.

Originally Posted by MadCityRef

You really want to explain to a coach that you didn't throw the flag because the kid didn't run to the preferred side of the field?

you may want to re-read the post. I never said that I'll never have a foul if he runs to the LJ side. I said that I (as an Umpire) will only throw a flag if I can clearly see the pass in relation to the sticks. OTHERWISE, I am dropping a bag, continuing to officiate the play, then going back with the R, and FLAGGING IF NEEDED.

Again, there is no rush to call this foul, so why do you need to flag it right away when you THINK you have something that may not really be there??

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by refbuz

You're throwing a flag even if your not looking at the sticks?? Are you taking a peak back at the sticks before or after you throw the flag, or do you just go back and look at it afterwards?

I'm only throwing that flag if I am looking at the sticks and its blatantly obvious that he's over the line.

There's rush to throw that foul.

If the QB is rolling away from the sticks, our mechanic (5-man) is to have the U drop a bag at the spot of the pass, then go back to the spot with the R to take a look. We do this because the LJ is not holding the line and drifts dowfield after reading pass. The R & U will take a look, and then decicde if they need to throw a flag or not,

I don't disagree with your bean bag mechanic, but I prefer to flag and then waive off after a conference in your scenario. If we have an apparent OPI or inelibigible downfield on a pass play, I also prefer for the covering official to throw the flag. Then, if the U or wing sees that the pass was completed in or behind the NZ we will come together and talk and then waive it off. Intentional Grounding is really the only scenario where I like there to be a clearly late flag (please don't mistake me for saying I want the flag to be thrown at the instant the apparent foul occurs, we want our guys processing the play mentally, etc). These mechanics have worked for us without incident on these plays. I'm sure your mechanics work for your crew as well.