OSU Purdue Incomplete Pass or Fumble
 

For anyone who knows the D-I college rules & saw the OSU game Saturday night. The OSU QB started his passing motion to a TE across the middle. About have way through his motion, he stopped the throwing motion and the ball came out of his grasp. The ruling on the filed was a fumble. It looked like a fumble as no one had contacted the QB, he just changed his mind because the TE was covered & lost control of the ball.

The replay official overturned the fumble to a incomplete pass. Could some one please explain why the replay official overturned the call on the field? :confused:

Off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure that if the arm is going forward and the ball comes out, it is a fumble.

What???? :confused:

What I am saying is if the QB is moving his arm forward to throw the ball, but changes his mind and he stops his arm (as in the play described) but the ball comes out, I think it is considered a forward pass.

In USAn rules sets, "fumble" is a type of loose ball defined by exclusion; lack of volition does not figure in making it a fumble. In the case above, the ball is considered to have been thrown, albeit involuntarily, so because it can be considered a pass, it does not "fall thru" (in computer programming terms) to "fumble" as a default.

Because of the way loose balls are defined, it is thus possible to have an involuntary pass or a voluntary fumble. For example, if someone were to attempt the equivalent of what would be a "leave pass" in soccer or hockey by laying the ball on the ground, that would be a fumble rather than a pass in USAn football. That determination would have relevance in terms of the 4th down fumble rules in NCAA & NFL.

Robert

REPLY: There is a statement in the definition of passing whaich says that when in question, it is an incomplete pass rather than a fumble during an attempted forward pass.

The QB clearly stopped his throwing motion & that is when the ball hit the ground. I thought the crew on the field (R & U) got it right. I was wondering why the replay official would overturn their judgment. There didn't appear to be any question that he wasn't throwing it but lost control when he "stopped the throw". It wasn't one of those things that needed frame by frame of the replay video to make the decision. When is "stopping a throw" no longer a pass?:confused:

"A forward pass is determined by the point where the ball first strikes the ground . . . or anything beyond the spot of the pass." Rule 2-19-2a. The replay official saw that the ball after release from the QB's forward-moving arm struck the ground "beyond the spot of the pass." Thus, incomplete pass by rule.

That's pretty much the opposite of what you said in the first post.

Yes - if the QB is moving his arm forward in a passing motion, and the ball comes out, it's a forward pass. Your first post says fumble (which is why the first response to you was "What?!?!?!")

I would think that...
 

in college since they have replay their thought process would be the opposite since they can overturn a fumble. I could be wrong as I have been MANY times before.

Whoops! I never saw that, but I meant NOT a fumble. Thanks.

I believe w sohl hit the nail on the head. The R very well could have thought this was an incomplete pass but went with fumble so replay could take a look. That's the philosophy they teach those guys. When in doubt, it's a fumble. That doesn't excuse them from stepping up and making an incomplete call when it's there but I totally agree that if there is a little bit of doubt, go with fumble.

Now I can go back to believing you again. ;)

So if we all agree that it was a pass then why wouldn't it be intentional grounding because there were no receivers in the area.:confused:

He didn't INTEND to Throw the ball???:)

Because of that pesky word "intentional". Read the IG rule if you need clarification - it specifies for you when that rule comes into play.

His intent was to not throw the ball but it came out of his hand, so it should be a fumble!

Please check with your training organization to see what they expect you to call. Me --- I see this call being on the training film as an incomplete pass next off-season.

He's a coach with an affinity for needling officials.

Did your post originally say something else? :)

Yes ... I decided to be a little nicer - my original post was probably over the top ... although if he's a coach, maybe I should reinstate it.

OK I was just making sure I wasn't crazy as I thought I read one thing, then hit "Quote" and something else showed up.

Going out on a limb here, so don't pound to hard. :rolleyes:

He did intentionally change the direction of his throw so that his arm was swinging downward when the ball came out. If his release had been intentional, the ball would have landed at the heels of the offensive linemen therefore the IG would apply. Since his release of the ball was unintentional, we'll signal a incomplete pass even though his intentional direction was down.

What if the hand went down further and the unintentional release of the ball caused the ball to go parallel to or toward A's endline. Would this still be ruled an incomplete pass because he unintentionally released the ball or is it now a fumble since the unintentional release of the pass was parallel to or toward A's endline? :confused:

I'll try to be nice ... but this is truly a simple call. Surely the fact that there's been NO outrage, NO confession of a screwed up call, NO complaints from the offended team in the actual game we're talking about should lead you to the conclusion that what we are telling you is correct.

Are you an official? If so, this discourse frightens me. You seem to WANT a penalty here... to the point that you're making efforts to bend the wording of rules to fit your preconceived notion. I would expect an official not to do this. You obviously don't believe us ... go ask your mentor, your trainers, etc.

This situation is really not that uncommon. Passer starts to pass, changes his mind, and the ball goes somewhere he didn't intend. This has been an incomplete pass in all rule codes for several years. I believe it may have been different when I was very young ... but not now.

(And note - if the unintentional pass was CLEARLY backward, then you simply have an uncaught backward pass, and all that implies. And remember - when in doubt, a pass is forward.)

Feetballref, I'm glad you are hearing the same thing on different boards, from different officials. That should add some validity to the answer.