Hmmm..........what do you think?
 

This happened this past Friday back in my home area of Michigan.

Here is the situation:

Team A (home team) is trailing 25-22 with :57.1 to go in regulation. Team A does a pooch on side kick (according to the newspaper article). Team A recovers the ball.

However, Team B (visiting team and winning at the time) is given possession of the ball because the kick did not hit the ground.

Team A is miffed to say the least. According to the paper, the head referee (assuming the white hat) goes and gets his rulebook, brings out to the field, shows and explains the rule to Team A's coach.

Team A ends up losing 25-22.

Has anyone ever left the field or stopped the game for the purpose of getting the rulebook out? (talking high school, not weekend tournaments like baseball where rules are altered) t

Wow. All we can say is wow. In Canada, the ball needing to hit the ground does not exist. But to bring a rulebook out during the game. Bad move in any location.

There's no need to ever break out a rule book. The officials should know the rules well enough not to need it and be confident in their ruling. If the coach has a problem, they can look it up themselves after the game. Its not our jobs to prove they don't know the rule.

Bottom line...did they get it right?

Kinda depends.

The kick must go 10 yards and touch the ground before A can recover and gain possession

Based on what I read in the rulebook, because I wanted to make sure myself, the crew did the call right. The ball does have to hit for the ground first in order for Team A to keep the ball.

So if the coach uses a time out to discuss a rule interp, your linesman does not bring the rule book on the field?

We had a coach not believe us on 7.1.7.b last Friday night, showed him at half, but what if he request it during the game using a TO?

What if he requested lobster and wine?

I've worked in 2 different states, and I have never seen rule book been on the field (at least as far as officials go). We handle by dicussing the rule with the coach. To me, it seems like we should go with the officials rather than the coach unless they can present the correct ruling (which is why they take the time out anyways). But it does make me wonder what other groups do?

Well, the w(h)ine can easily be collected from around the sideline.

James

Another take---similar but different. I don't know if this would have changed the options for the receivers at all....but since the ball was caught--this is also by definition and rule Kick Catching Interference. An awarded fair catch or rekick and fifteen yards. Like I say doesnt make a difference, since the R is going to take the ball where it was touched or awarded. Just a sidebar issue though.

REPLY: If the coach wants to take a TO for a referee-coach conference, that's his prerogative. If the official wants' to tell the coach that the ruling is correct and that he (the coach) can find that in Rule 6, that's fine too. But don't bring a rule book out onto the field, and absolutely NEVER delay the game to go get a rulebook to prove your point.

I could not disagree more.

What are you afraid of? In Ohio the linesman is REQUIRED to bring the rule and case books onto the field. The chain crew holds onto it. If WE need to refer to it, it is available. The purpose is not to satisfy a coach, but as a reference for us. We have needed to go the books once in 13 years.

Am I to understand that if you were faced with a situation where you misinterpreted a rule, the coach calls for a conference you feel it isn't appropriate to check on a rule. What are we worried about, getting the call right or your ego. Give me a break!

The trouble is you don't know what you don't know and during the game isn't the time to figure it out.
Rule books are for bathrooms and clinics. Neither I nor the coach will ever have a rule book on the field(at least not for long)

In a very practical sense, the consequences of pulling out a rule book in the middle of a game outweigh the consequences of a misinterpretation.

No, and I never will. It looks really silly doing such a thing.

Peace

REPLY: If knowing that I can make a ruling on the field with 99.9% confidence that I have it right is ego, then I'm guilty. The problem with having a rule book on my hip is two-fold: (1) As soon as I open it, every situation from that point forward has the potential for being met with a "Look it up, Blue" or "You're gonna have to show that to me, Ref." Anyone ever heard of Pandora's Box?? and (2) As soon as you open the book on the field, your credibility for being able to properly control and administer the game goes right down the toilet.

If that's what Ohio says you should do, by all means do it. But I'd rather rely on committing the rules to memory. Not to be able to recite Rule-Section-Article out on the field, but being able to tell the coach that you're sure of your ruling with the promise to show it to him in the book after the game.

I checked, did not see anything about that under rule 3.5.2.c or 3.5.11. Maybe you have a different rule book than I have. Mine has 3.5 starting on page 43 and ending on page 45.

Not to be picky....
 

I do the same thing on occasion and not give everything in a rule. You are partially correct, K (or A) can recover before either of those things happens if R (or B) touches the ball first.

If you do it in Ohio, it makes it correct.....in Ohio. The rest of us can continue to think it's a stupid thing to bring to the field.

1. As I said, we are required to have it on the field and miraculously we don't have either of the problems that you describe.

2. Having an independant understanding of the rules and having the rule books on the field are not mutually exclusive. You can have both.

3. Assuming there is a rule that you don't know for sure (if you can imagine that) having the self confidence to go to the book ensures the correct call.

4. I liken it to carrying a condom...Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

5. It is not about US. Get the call right.

So how do other states handle rule 3.5.2.c? Does the coach request a Time Out to review the rule, you say ok, go over to him and say, "I’m right, your wrong, you have two time outs left, second down".

Greatness, the bathroom is where I keep mine too.:D

Absolutely.

He is the coach. *I* am the referee. I'll listen and if there's been a mistake, we'll correct it.

If he's incorrect, he gets charged with a timeout and life goes on. But I get to decide that.

When you say "touch the ground", do you mean touch the ground after it has gone 10 yards, or touch the ground any time after it has been kicked?

"go 10 yards and touch the ground" in that order. Or put another way, "after
the ball has gone ten yards and then touched the ground, K may recover and keep possession. And as previously stated, if R touches the ball before it goes 10 yards, K may then legally recover.

REPLY: I hope Ohio doesn't require you to bring one of those onto the field as well! :D

I guess we'll just need to philosophically disagree.

I'm pretty sure you're incorrect. It doesn't have to be in that order - it can hit the ground immediately, or at 5, or 8 yards, and then be recovered in the air after 10 yards. It doesn't necessarily have to touch ground AFTER it goes 10.

REPLY: mbcrowder is correct. The two requirements (hit the ground, and go ten yards) may occur in either order. All that's required is that both occur. That's why the newest onside kick technique is for the kicker to kick the top of the teed-up ball, have it hit the ground immediately off the tee and then pop up for a 'jump ball' just beyond R's restraining line.

That's a great onsides kick technique too because R cannot fair catch it either since it hit the ground.

I like Missouri's system (although I've never seen it used). If a coach, after discussing the rule with the officials during a time out, still disagrees with the rule interpretation he can protest the game. When he does, both teams are sent to the bench and the coach has ten minutes to review the rule with the officials with the use of a rule book, which the coach is responsible to provide. The officials are instructed to help the coach find the appropriate rule and interpretation in the book. If, after 10 minutes, the coach hasn't proven his point and convinced the officials to change the ruling, the protest is denied and the game continues.

Wow, how long must games be in Missouri. Of course, Missouri is the "show me" state.

Unless, of course, you are unsure/ mistaken about a rule, in which case you are screwed as is the coach and his players. All which could be avoided if only you had access to the information.

All of which could be avoided if you studied the rules. In the middle of a game is a poor time to be learning the rules.

I thought the only way you could conclusively apply 3-5-2c is with a rule book. Without a rule book it becomes coach versus referee, with the book all doubt is removed.

My crew toolbag has a rule and case book and the athletic association has in their handbook that we MUST have them available for consultation. Have only used it once and not for good reason.

As for the rule on kickoffs, 6-1-5 requires the kick to go 10 yards and it must touch the ground. Kickers are mastering the art of kicking downward so the ball touches the ground and then goes the requisite 10 yards as the two requirements can be in either order.

Ok here's the scenario:

QB A1 runs 10 yds beyond the LOS then throws illegal forward pass.
Basic spot is from end of run. But wait! Defensive coach says the penalty should be marked from LOS. You inform him that the basic spot on running plays is from end of run. he insists this is a loose ball play and basic spot is LOS.
Are you going to pull out the rulebook, waste 5 minutes and set a dangerous precedent just to prove you're right? Or are you going to politely tell coach to look it up on his own time?

Unless you use the book to justify your interp every time the coach questions you I can't see ever using the book because here's the problem, if you know you're right you're not going to pull out the book to prove it(at least I hope you don't) If you're mistaken, you don't know you're mistaken, you think you're right so you're not pullin the book out to prove it. If you're not sure you consult with your crew and if you all come up with the same mistake you'll have the confidence of your crew behind you and you won't pull the book out to prove it. If the crew is split on the rules app question I'm sure one of you will have the confidence to say I know the rule and this is it. So again no rule book needed to prove it.

If you have an entire crew weak on rules and weak on selling ability then perhaps the book would be helpful

While I carry the books per regulation, it is my belief complex rules often require multiple rule citations something best done in a clinic.

Here are two situations that necessiated the rule book:

A on a field goal attempt. B11 standing inbounds jumps and tips the ball such that it goes over the goal post. Official disallowed the field goal incorrectly. Would the book have helped?

Fourth and 15 for A from B's 40. A32 runs to B's 30. B64 dives and late hits A32. Officials place the ball on B's 15 first and ten for A. A scores and the win is enough to put them in the playoffs, without the win no playoffs. Would and should the book have been helpful?

We are human in spite of the funny looking shirt.

Chances of me or any crewmate having a rule book on or near the field....absolutely zero. You want to destroy any resemblance of professionalism, stand there looking thru a rule book during a game. I couldn't care less how Ohio does it because, thankfully, I don't deal with Ohio rules. That policy is just asking for trouble despite misplaced good intentions. Study the friggin rules and it becomes moot!!
Number of times I've been questioned about what the coach thinks is a rule question but is really a judgement question...tons. Number of times it actually was a rule question...once and for the same thing as the original post. Amazing when I told the coach the exact conditions that had to be met in order for him to keep the ball, that was that.

My bad! You are absolutely right. I was trying to make a point that both hit the ground and go 10 yards had to occur. I should have said " in either order".

All of this disscusion is about NF rules correct? Not NCAA.

Just ask him to show it to you in his copy. End of discussion.

In Ohio the linesman is REQUIRED to bring the rule and case books onto the field. The chain crew holds onto it.

Pretty sure that one gets ignored on a regular basis. I asked a linesman to check his casebook on the rule about Low blocks in shotgun formation. He didn't have one, even to look at in the locker ;) room at halftime.

I think this state should rename themselves Oiho - because they're thinking backwards!

Leave the damn book in the locker room!

Seriously - I wonder if something happened that the SA figured the way to show progress was to bring the book to the sideline. Perhaps a ruling was made in a state final where the crew didn't know the correct ruling. :confused:

If it's a well-written rule book, such as Fed's ca. 1980, yes. If it's a badly written one such as NFL's or CFL's from around that time, no!

Obviously this isn't anything an official can do anything about. Rather, it's a criterion for judging how well a rule book is written. If the book is written well, you should be able to look anything up and get a definitive answer quickly. If it's not, you get into situations where you have to look thru the whole book, end to end, to see if a particular provision out-specifies a general one your eyes might've hit elsewhere.

In practice, what officials do with all but the best written rule books is to rearrange them in their heads. Even if the rule book is among the best written, I'm not saying you should actually refer to it during administration of a game, but that's the ideal that the writers of the rules should aim for.

Robert

hypothetical situation:

You walk onto a plane and you see the pilot reading "Flying 747's for Dummies"
You might think "this guy doesn't know what he's doing".

Three hours later the right engine goes out. The pilot pulls out the manual and restarts the engine. You think "thank god he had the manual".

My point is I have never met another official who has not misapplied a rule. If you haven't you are either a) a liar or b) a sure shot for the NFL.

As previously stated the rule book is not for the coach it is for the official's reference. You don't need to pull it out to prove anything. The only time an official would need to bring it out is if he was unsure about a rule. To be honest, I don't think that the coach's know that we have it.

To those of you that say "know the rules". No joke. If you never need it what have you lost. If you do need it, it's there.

To those with the "because I said so " attitude, you are part of the reason coaches hate and do not respect us.

This might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If I am are not sure I can pull out the rule book. You can not. Enough said .

You refuse to see the big picture. Nothing we can do about that, I suppose.

But I will say this - the first time you pull out the rulebook on the field, you will hear a relentless never-ending litany of arguments about the rules from both sidelines. Do you really want this?

Yes - we on rare occasions make mistakes ... but to pull out the book every time we have a question DURING a game opens up a huge mess that you really don't want any part of.

The big picture is simply that you and those like you have an ego that overshadows the reason why you are out there.

Unlike you, I HAVE been in a game where we pulled out the book. Guess what, NONE of the things you described occured.

No one ever said that you pull out the book "everytime we have a question".

It simply doesn't happen.

I understand that you are confident in your rules knowledge, as am I. However, there will come a time at some point where both of us would benefit from access to the rule or case book. In those occassions it is my opinion that I would swallow my pride, go to the book and get the call right.

You and others like you feel that the harm of this outweighs the need to get the call right. I get it. I don't agree with it but I get it.

I think that the head of our officials knows what he is doing.
If not, I don't think that he would be in the Big Ten.

My crew has a simple solution to questions from coaches who don't "believe" us on a rule. After the game, if the coach approaches us, my white hat will meet the coach near the locker rooms, hand him a business card, and ask that he email with the question and then we'll get back to him (the coach) with a response with the rule references, etc. We've only had to do this once a year, if even that. This year, we had to pacify a coach who thought that ANY contact with the head was illegal (this was after his quarterback got sacked while crouching down to absorb the blow and the defender was on top of him in such a way his arms were wrapped around the QB's head as they were going down).

One thing I do have on the field with me is a laminated card from the rule book which has a list of all the penalties and yardages, LOD, AFD, etc. That has come in handy more than a time or two, I'm glad (and sorry) to say.

I agree!
It was a long winded way to say rule books do not belong on the field. Period!


I disagree
I can pull out the rule book if I had it with me and so chose, I simply choose not to open pandoras box.

Some officials choose to talk to assistants as if they were the HC, others do not. Some officials will engage sideline spectators, others choose not to. Some officials keep the whisle in their mouth, others choose not to. Some officials look up rules during the game, others choose not to.

let me get this right. you officials who oppose getting out rule book, would rather be wrong , instead of making the right call!!! all because your pride stands in your way. i thought taht the main objetive of officiating was to get the call right!! and to be fair to all involed!! glad you people on NOT on my crew!!!

When you KNOW that you're right and the HC questions you, do you pull out the rule book to prove it?

I expect the answer to be no

Do you think it's possible to be confident in a rules app and yet be wrong?

How about when you think you KNOW but in reality you're wrong? It's the same as above you don't pull out the book because you have no doubt you're right, but sadly you're wrong. How does this sitch get resolved?
The only way to resolve this is too pull the book every time the HC disagrees just to make sure.
Since getting the call right seems to be your first and only priority, it seems that checking the book each time the HC questions you would be the prudent thing to do.

Is that your MO or is your threshold dependant upon how loud the HC yells?

If you have a slight mis giving about a rule or app but neither bench complains do you go to the book anyway? Or is it OK to mis apply a rule as long as no one knows?

Once you open the book on the field you're on the slope and it gets quite slippery very quickly.
To be frank, I don't know how you can justify not going to the book for every rule and app.

A lot of the plays involve multiple rules, defenitions, case book plays and misc. items from Reddings, the state, etc. so proving something to a coach could really be a problem.

Secondly, it's one thing to know the rules and then another to be able to quickly find the appropriate place in the book while some coach is arguing with you.

Finally, even with the rule book in front of them, I don't know that they would listen. I had a coach Friday that insisted a USC could be carried over to the kick off. He kept telling me that it was a point of emphasis this year and I was wrong. Because he was so sure he knew the rule and of the way 8-2-2 is written, I'm not sure even a rule book in front of me I would have been able to convince him in a reasonable amount of time.

Once you open the book on the field you're on the slope and it gets quite slippery very quickly.
To be frank, I don't know how you can justify not going to the book for every rule and app.[/QUOTE]


Everyone keeps making this claim, but ignores the reality of this claim. I have been doing games for nine years in Ohio. Only one time in nine years have we had to refer toa book. That was during a coaches requested conference with the referee. After that, there was no request to check the book on every play or every call. There has been no "slippery slope". Ohio has been bringing the books on the field for over a decade now and there has been no problem. No repeated requests to check the book. Like I said, in my nine years we've only used the book one time.

in ohio the hc has the right to ask if we misinterpeted a rule. he must do it before the next snap. if we are wrong, we change our ruling ,and inform the other coach. if we are correct, the hc is charged a to. if none remain ,a delay of game penalty is called. so if we do not grant the request, we are now violating the rules!!

Just what is the Ohio procedure for book review? (too expensive to get video review I suppose). Does the coach have to just complain about the call or does he have to call for a conference and maybe risk a timeout? Is it just the head coach or any assitant as well? What if you're sure but the coach still complains, do you have to go to the book to prove you're right? And if you don't, how is that really any different than not even having the book? And like CO Ump said, what if there is disagreement amoung the officials but the coaches are clueless? Do you go to the book or just slip it by them? Does it take only 1 official to question or at least a tie in the "vote"? Or is it just left up to the referee to decide one way or the other?
I can understand the good intentions of getting the ruling right, but this is just such an unprofessional way to go about it and opens the crew up to so much crap I would think it would create many more problems than it could solve.
PS - I would hope my 747 pilot already knows how to start up engines rather than trying to open up a book while struggling to keep an unstable aircraft from falling out of the sky. I guess the same could be said for officials knowing the rules, huh?

PSS-it appears some of this may have been answered while I was typing away.

Do you pull out the book every time he asks?

It sounds like Ohio has instituted it's own version of the "coach's challenge", except he can do it as many times as he feels like (as long as he's willing to risk the 5 yard penalty).
I can think of a couple coaches around these parts that would make that little idea such a pleasure.

Head Coach must call a TO, if none risk delay of game foul.

I only speak to head coaches.

The man with the white hat is in charge of our crew.



I still don’t know what rules 3.5.2.c and 3.5.11 means to everyone else?

Does the NFL have a rule book at the sides?
Does the CFL have a rule book at the sides?
Does the AFL have a rule book at the sides?
Does the Pac10 have a rule book at the sides?
Does the SEC have a rule book at the sides?
Does the Big10 have a rule book at the sides?
Does the Big12 have a rule book at the sides?
Does the ACC have a rule book at the sides?
Does the MAC have a rule book at the sides?
Does NY have a rule book at the sides?
MA?
PA?
TX?
CA?
Of the 50 states, how many mandate a rule book at the sides?
I bet Oiho might be the only state. I don't care what your Big10 ref says.... he still ****s every day like I do.

Ohio Ruling
 

We allow touchbacks, mid field is the 50 yard line and call it ham. I'll be proud to be different. We have a procedure that works fine if the situation arises to address the rule.

This has nothing to do with ego - it has to do with perception. I HAVE been on the field when a rulebook was brought out during a disputed ruling. Granted - this was baseball, but the prinicipal is the same. As expected, the umpire was right, the coach (and TD as it turned out) was wrong. However - for the rest of the game it was a litany of "Why don't you pull out the rulebook over THAT one, blue!", and I'm told it carried over into that PU's next game. Pulling out the book to look something up that is not COMPLETELY abnormal only costs the officiating crew it's credibility, and VERY rarely helps anything.

I admit that it's conceivable that our entire crew would miss one. But it's not a matter of "swallowing our pride" - it's a matter of demolishing our credibility.

You know what... since you have this rule, and your whole state has no problem pulling out the rulebook everytime there's a disagreement, perhaps the fans/players/coaches/etc in Ohio are a little more used to seeing it happen, and maybe you DON'T get the backlash.

I assure you, in the rest of the free world, where pulling out the rulebook during a game is unheard of, there WOULD be a backlash and a hit to our on-field credibility.

I'm with Jim D on this one. How often do we say we have to understand defintions to be a good official? Just look around this forum when we have to cobble together several sections in order to answer some of those quirky plays.

I also agree with someone else who asked when it stops? Do we get the rulebook out if we simply have questions about something even if nobody complains?

I can't imagine the contractor I hired to run electricity into my home consulting the electrical codes. There are certain expectations we have when someone is hired as a contractor for a job. We expect that if they are licensed that they will know the rules governing the job and that they will be able to get the job done correctly? Would i demand an electrical contractor bring his copy of the electrical codes with him to the job? No. That is his decision. Would I fault him if he did? No, but I would lose faith in his ability to do a routine job if I found him consulting the book for something I thought he should know.

For those of you that live in states where such a thing is mandated, do what is required ("when in Rome...."). But for me, I won't carry a rulebook onto the field.

Maybe the shortage of officials has gotten so bad that we are putting crews on the field that really don't know the rules.

Where do you get the opinion that we pull out the rulebook every time there's a disagreement? Havent't you read the posts. In nine years it has only happened once. I hardly call that pulling out the book every time there is a disagreement. And amazingly, no one ever said another word after that one time. Noone even asked to look at the book again. In fact, I have had that coach in games since then, and he has never said anything about it again. The book is there for the very rare instances it is needed.

Is going to the book something that occurs more frequently across the state and you're just lucky that its happened to you only once? Or is it something that only happens once or twice a season, if that? How about other sports in OH, are the officials in those sports required to carry rule books as well or is it just Football?

Going to the book on the field is a no win situation for an official. Because if your right it comes off as "See Coach, WE were right, and YOU were wrong..." If your wrong, it comes off as "These guys are incompetent". I just think that there are better ways to handle that situation than going to a rulebook on the sidelines.

Personally, I just don't see the benefit of carrying the book onto the field if you've only used it 1 time in 9 years. Assuming 10-12 games a year, thats around 1% of the games that you've worked, and its ridiculously lower than that if your looking at it on a per play basis.

That is like walking around in scuba gear when it rains because there MIGHT be a flood.

At least you know how to follow properly and use a lightbulb. :D

Funny you mention touchbacks, because we have them as well. Maybe not in all the same circumstances as the US game, but we do have them.

Like the guy earlier said, that's great that Oiho has their own procedure. Their officials should follow it.

All of these are valid points, but are irrelevant to the issue. No one said bringing the books on the field is a cure all. It is simply a RESOURCE. WHy are you all so threatened by it.

There is no rule regarding if or when we use the book. We are simply required to have it with us.

P.S. If you think that
1.Your pilot knows everything that there is to know about a machine with millions of parts or:

2. That there are not written resources on board available for the flight crew of a 747 you are naive.

This is the point. If you Choose not to bring it, you can't refer to it.

No. Our rule is no different than yours with respect to Coaches conferences.

He's a light eater. Might be every other day.

Whether officiating or flying, when the crap hits the fan you better have all your ducks in a row or be able to improvise quickly, if not, you're going down in flames, books or no books.

Just another RESOURCE guys that may or may not come in handy in a given situation. I know you are frightened, but its really not that big of a deal.

I can't speak for Mc but yes, I think on field credibility can be very precarious.
But it's got nothing to do actual ability and everything to do with perception.
Perception can be mighty fickle.

If you live in a small town and you do the same teams week after week then you may catch a little slack

Since replay is for judgement calls only it's kind of not the same

Perhaps it's just best to agree to disagree. The Ohio guys seem to think it's a great idea. Just about everybody else doesn't. If it works for the Ohio guys, great. For my assoc, I suspect the idea would be resoundingly rejected.

Funny you mention that, we found one on the 50 yard line last year. We joked that our field inspection was to detailed. :eek:

I'm not threatened by it. I just won't do it unless it's required of me. Ego has nothing to do with it. But your defensiveness in the form of many consecutive posts speaks volumes.

If a coach asks me for a conference, I'll grant it. I'll talk with the crew, if needed. If we're wrong, we'll fix it. But our crew has rules knowledge and doesn't need to bring a book to the field to demonstrate it.

Just a Note
 

Not to start this up agian but I am just catching up reading and thought I would let you know that Wisconsin also requires the rule book on field. The back judge I belive is required to carry it. (we actually put ours in our spare parts bag and leave it with the chain crew.) We have used in once in ten years and never had any backlash from it.

nisnocsiW Ruling
 

Completely ironic since the state motto is "Forward".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin

I am a WH in Wisconsin. I've read through the state adaptations to the NFHS rules and nowhere does it say this. Please show me in writing where the crew is required to carry a book to the field. My crew has NEVER done this.

Wow maybe I am wrong I remeber someone telling me that many years ago when I started and I thought I even remember reading it, so I have just always done it. I'll see if I can find anything. Otherwise sorry for the miss information.

The officials guide says that rulebooks, casebooks, Wisconsin adaptations, Wisconsin Bulletin articles, etc. should be taken to all contests.

This is a general statement, which doesn't apply to any particular sport. And those items listed above (except for the bulletins, which are only saved if there are specific interpretations made) are taken by my crew to all contests. And they stay in a bag in my car or in the locker room.