Taunting

[U52]

I was at my son's junior high game this past weekend and the officials called taunting on R during a live ball play where R returned the Kick for a touch down. The WH had them replay the Kick from 15yrds back from the previous spot. I looked it up when I got home and feel it should have been a touch down with the penalty enforced on the try or the kick-off, Ks choice. Is this correct?

[MJT]

Originally Posted by U52

I was at my son's junior high game this past weekend and the officials called taunting on R during a live ball play where R returned the Kick for a touch down. The WH had them replay the Kick from 15yrds back from the previous spot. I looked it up when I got home and feel it should have been a touch down with the penalty enforced on the try or the kick-off, Ks choice. Is this correct?

The officials were wrong. Taunting is a USC foul and they are ALWAYS enforced from the succeeding spot. TD and back them up 15 yards on the try. This CANNOT be carried over to the KO according to new rule 8-2-2.

[FeetBallRef]

Originally Posted by U52

the officials called taunting on R

U52, how did you know it was taunting and some other foul?

[wheels]

MJT,

Wouldn't you take in to account when the USC happened? if it happen before the TD, just like a player getting his clock cleaned away from the play.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by U52

I was at my son's junior high game this past weekend and the officials called taunting on R during a live ball play where R returned the Kick for a touch down. The WH had them replay the Kick from 15yrds back from the previous spot. I looked it up when I got home and feel it should have been a touch down with the penalty enforced on the try or the kick-off, Ks choice. Is this correct?

CANADIAN RULING:

Taunting is Objectionable Conduct, 10 yards from the PNS (Point of Next Scrimmage).

TD counts, and either back the try up 10 yards, or the KO goes back 10 yards.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by wheels

MJT,

Wouldn't you take in to account when the USC happened? if it happen before the TD, just like a player getting his clock cleaned away from the play.

wheels, USC can NEVER involve contact. All USC fouls (don't even talk about the intentional pass interference guys) are noncontact fouls. Therefor, no matter where it occurs, at the 40 yard line, 10, or in the EZ, it is a USC and can ONLY be enforced on the try.

[wheels]

Thanks MJT

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by MJT

wheels, USC can NEVER involve contact. All USC fouls (don't even talk about the intentional pass interference guys) are noncontact fouls. Therefor, no matter where it occurs, at the 40 yard line, 10, or in the EZ, it is a USC and can ONLY be enforced on the try.

The part in red is something we've been having problems with this year.

Almost every white hat I've worked with has offered enforcement on the kickoff as one of the options for a USC or deadball foul. Unfortunately, as a new guy, my opinion isn't given much weight during these discussions.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Welpe

The part in red is something we've been having problems with this year.

Almost every white hat I've worked with has offered enforcement on the kickoff as one of the options for a USC or deadball foul. Unfortunately, as a new guy, my opinion isn't given much weight during these discussions.

If it's happening repeatedly, bring a copy of the rule and discuss it with your veteran officials before each game. Sometimes when the new guy brings something up as if he's trying to learn and doesn't understand how something was ruled differently than he expected, the old grizzled veteran ends up learning something when confronted with that foreign rulebook.

[BktBallRef]

Why are live ball USC fouls penalized from the succeeding spot? I have a huge problem with this rule.

Our in state, NC, we are cracking down on USC and specifically, taunting this year. Live ball USC fouls by a player scoring a TD are considered taunting. The player is "ejtected" from the game and suspended for next week's game. Whether it's the "Reggie Bush dive," flipping/dancing/backing into the end zone, holding the ball or "#1" over your head or anything else you can think of that players might do, BANG and you're gone.

Now, I have no problem with this stance. Officials have failed to address it, coaches have failed to address it. The NCHSAA has taken it into their own hands and said enough. That'a great!

But here's my problem with the rule. Why the succeeding spot enforcement? Penalize it as a live ball foul from the spot of the foul, and take the touchdown away. I can guarantee that such a rule change would clean up this type of unsporting behaviour, maybe even faster than ejectd and suspending kids would.

Thoughts?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Why are live ball USC fouls penalized from the succeeding spot? I have a huge problem with this rule.

A's ball on their own 1 yard line. A breaks a big gainer and is going to score easily. While the ball carrier is on the 50, Team B lineman on A's 1 yard line starts talking smack, cussing, whatever - you flag it.

If you have no succeeding spot enforcement, A must decline this penalty and you have nothing to penalize B with (other than a possible ejection).

However, if A does exactly the same thing, you would have to bring it all the way back. Is this equitable? What if B starts cussing a team A player, and A cusses right back, and you flag them both. If you have no option for succeeding spot enforcement, B has just taunted A into losing a 99 yard TD on offsetting penalties.

Your suggestion is hugely problematical.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: BktBallRef...the simple answer is that a USC foul will have nothing at all to do with determining the result of the play. A can't gain an advantage by taunting, nor can he put B at a disadvantage. That's why the Fed changed the USC enforcement a number of years ago. It used to be as you suggested--a simple live ball foul with all-but-one enforcement. But because of the USC's insignificance in determining the result of the play, they decided to change it...for better or worse. If they changed it back, it would be clear that the only reason for the change would be a punitive reason and not something to do with negating an unfair advantage.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

A's ball on their own 1 yard line. A breaks a big gainer and is going to score easily. While the ball carrier is on the 50, Team B lineman on A's 1 yard line starts talking smack, cussing, whatever - you flag it.

If you have no succeeding spot enforcement, A must decline this penalty.

Hmmm...you might want to look that up in your rule book. Like any other live ball foul on such a play, A has the option of taking the penalty on the try.

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: BktBallRef...the simple answer is that a USC foul will have nothing at all to do with determining the result of the play. A can't gain an advantage by taunting, nor can he put B at a disadvantage. That's why the Fed changed the USC enforcement a number of years ago. It used to be as you suggested--a simple live ball foul with all-but-one enforcement. But because of the USC's insignificance in determining the result of the play, they decided to change it...for better or worse. If they changed it back, it would be clear that the only reason for the change would be a punitive reason and not something to do with negating an unfair advantage.

I realize all of that, Bob. But USC is no longer insignificant in other regards. What's happened since that enforcement was changed? Taunting and unsporting conduct constantly show up in the POE. It's all over TV, so more and more kids are behaving in inappropriate ways.

Wee have penalties for reasons other that it created an unfair advantage. If a team can't score without acting like idiots while they're doing it, there should be punitive action. JMHO.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I don't necessarily disagree with you, BktBallRef. And I realized you probably knew that. But I was just mentioning it for some others so that they could have a proper understanding of the philosophy which made USC a succeeding spot enforcement.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

But here's my problem with the rule. Why the succeeding spot enforcement? Penalize it as a live ball foul from the spot of the foul, and take the touchdown away. I can guarantee that such a rule change would clean up this type of unsporting behaviour, maybe even faster than ejectd and suspending kids would.

Succeeding spot enforcement makes the most sense because the harm caused by the taunt is the same regardless of where or when it took place.

Penalizing from the spot of the foul would have ridiculously different results between incidents of USC occurring in the end zone in which the fouling team scored, and occurrences where after a breakaway TD, someone on his own 30 yard line taunts an opponent. Many occurrences of USC take place well out of bounds, and relating these to a position on the field, although a simple geometry exercise, gets to be silly.

USC also usually occurs over a longer period of time than other fouls do. At what point in time is the incident of USC deemed to have occurred -- when the player bent over, or when he pulled his pants down? Succeeding spot enforcement takes that determination away too.

Robert