Kill the Punter
 

What do you think?

K lines up in punt formation. K1 (the punter) accepts the snap and punts the ball. After he punts his leg returns to the ground and takes a couple steps downfield while the ball is still in the air heading to R's receiver. R1 is lined up as a defensive end. He charges to try and block the punt. Knowing that he will not get to the punt he lays off and runs behind the punter. He then circles around and blocks the punter in the front and above the waist. The punter never saw him coming and is flattened. The block occurs approx 8 yards behind the LOS at K's 20.

Questions
1. Is there a foul on this play?
2. If yes, what is the foul? Why?
3. If yes, what is the enforcement?
4. If no, why?

My answer is it depends.

Where was the ball when all this was taking place?

If the punter was completely out of the play, I would say you could easily have a foul. If you have a foul then it is a personal foul and it would be 15 yards from the end of the run or a spot foul behind the end of the run (which ever hurts the most).

There could be an argument that this was not a foul if you feel the punter was a potential blocker and that would be based on where the ball was at the time of the block.

The bottom line is you cannot just hit someone that is completely out of the play. It was a few years ago, but this was a POE at one time for hitting players not directly involved in the play.

Peace

Questions
1. Have to see the play, but as you describe it I would lean yes.
2. Personal Foul, charging into an opponent obviously out of the play (Rule 9 somewhere)
3. Depends. If before the end of the kick, we will have 15 yards from previous spot and either replay 4th down or award new series to K. If after the end of the kick, we will have 15 yards from spot of the foul or end of the run depending if run ends beyond or behind spot of foul.

HTBT, but I am thinking no foul cuz R is returning the ball back towards the punter who is a defensive player now, and is the last line of defense for saving a TD on the return. You said he circled around and hit him from the front and above the waist so the kicker should have been able to see him. It wasn't even a side hit, which would be more suspect to a PF.

BUT like I said you'd HTBT to know all the circumstances of how it went down.

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

1. Yes.
2. Illegal Inteference on the Punter because either:
   1. the ball hadn't yet been touched by R or
   2. the punter reached the LS
3. 10 yards from Point of Possession.
4. DNA

As stated the ball was in the air heading to the K receiver/returner.

Would your opinions change if this same situation did not include the punter, but a player in the wall of the punt formation?

How do you explain to a coach that this player was out of the play, when he is IN FRONT of the play and the last defender on a return?

That's right. The Canadian rule is a bit of a holdover from the time that a scrimmage kick could be considered an attacking move, with possession possibly retained, but otherwise I see no reason the kicker should be thought to be specially protected once he has a chance to regain balance. However....

A tactic I sometimes used to see in the NFL and minor league adult football -- though I haven't noticed it in decades -- on kickoffs was for team R to send multiple blockers against the kicker-off. Obviously they didn't consider him a great tackling threat, it was just an attempt to injure or intimidate the smallest player on the field, if he was a specialist. Like the Chi. Lions (NSFL) sending a wave of 3 to blast the kicker ASAP after kicking off. I always thought the officials should make a judgement that this did not help the runback and to call UR, but they never did. Yet I don't see that any more. NCAA adopted a rule that effectively allowed the maker of a free kick to wimp out of the play, but the problem wasn't particular to the NCAA.

Robert

Is the punter blind? He was hit from the front and never saw it coming? I've got no foul. I don't consider him out of the play as the ball can still be returned. And, he is no longer a kicker when the contact happened.

You really need to see this one but from the original post the ball was in the air when the contact was made, therefore, the punter was not involved in the play. Sounds as if the R defender was chipping which I would consider unnecessary roughness, a post scrimmage kick foul.

I try to use preventative officiating especially on punts like this by yelling out the simple phrase "It's Gone." It lets the players know you are there and the ball is out of the area. If I see something like described in this post there is no doubt it is a foul.

A lot of things would factor. If the ball is still in the air, that is not a lot of time for most players to participate in the play if they are just standing. Most punts are not going to be more than 3 or 4 seconds. I would want to punter to participate and that is rather hard if the ball is in the air. Even if the ball hit the ground or was caught, I would not allow a player just to hit someone that was not actively running toward the play or trying to participate. As someone said you would really HTBT. And the kind of contact would also be a factor as well.

I know that this is likely going to answer your question, but you must understand that experience sometimes shapes how we view these things.

Peace

The Cdn rule is in place to protect these specialized players. On a KO, the R specifically has the kicker.

The way I'm reading this, he's not blind, but looking up at his handiwork, and not participating in the play. There was a POE in both FED and NCAA in the past 2-3 years that this player should not be forcibly blocked until he starts participating in the play.

I think you have to look at the entire situation. It's not clear how far away the kick was at the time of contact. Was it short? If the ball is only 20 yards or so away, I think you could reasonably assume the punter could easily participate near term in the play and can be blocked. If he boomed it 50 yards up field, I would think he is not yet in any position to participate near term and you just might have a penalty.
Let's change the situation a little. If the QB throws a long pass (40 yds) that gets intercepted, are you going to allow a B lineman to just plaster him like this while well away from the play? The QB can easily be considered the "last line of defense". Are you going to treat a kicker different from a QB?

But the situation was:

He's covering the kick. Why should team R have to wait for some later time when he's a more difficult target to block him?

IMO if the player wants to be protected from contact in such a situation, he should have to sit or kneel.

Robert

OK Robert, what if the ball is not being returned at all and the ball is being downed by kicking team. Is it OK to just hit anyone anywhere on the field?

As people have said, it really depends on how the play is developing.

Peace

In terms of if you've got a foul, HTBT.

There are a couple of enforcements listed that I've got an issue with or I'm not understanding.

JRutledge said: If you have a foul then it is a personal foul and it would be 15 yards from the end of the run or a spot foul behind the end of the run (which ever hurts the most).

and, Kirby said: If after the end of the kick, we will have 15 yards from spot of the foul or end of the run depending if run ends beyond or behind spot of foul.

Both of these seem to talk about enforecement after the end of the run, which shouldn't matter in this case (I'm assuming this action happens before the change of possession.). This is not a PSK foul. The four requirements for PSK are:

• R fouls on their side of the expanded neutral zone before the end of the kick (can be before or during the kick).
• K makes a legal scrimmage kick that crosses the neutral zone.
• The kick ends beyond the neutral zone (on R's side).
• R is in team possession at the end of the down.

In this instance if you've judged that R fouled, the foul occured on K's side of the NZ so I've simply got a foul on R during a loose ball play. Basic spot is the previous LOS with a foul by B behind that spot. The enforcement spot is the previous LOS - 15 yards (maybe a first down but not automatic, otherwise replay 4th down).

Paul

I did not say this was a PSK foul. A PSK foul would involve enforcement potentially of the end of the kick. I did not even suggest that.

If the ball is being returned and you have a personal foul, you enforce at the spot of the foul or the end of the run which ever hurts the team worse. More than likely this would be an end of the run enforcement, but if the run happen past the spot of the foul, you go back to the spot foul. No different if you did not have a kick and you have a touchdown run (from a scrimmage play) and behind the play and during the run you have a similar personal foul called, this is a spot foul if the ball is still live. You bring the ball back to the spot and enforce 15 yards from there. I do not even know where you got PSK out of my post. PSK only applies to a foul by R beyond the expanded neutral zone which this play (based on what I have read) was not the case.

Peace

RTK, yes. PF - no. PF is a live ball foul enforced as a dead ball foul.

JRutledge,

The original post says that The original post isn't clear about the timing of the block. I interpreted the original post to imply that the contact was while the ball was still in the air, not post-possession change. Since A was still in team possession of the ball with a foul by R (not a PSK foul) I was questioning why it wouldn't be enforced as a live ball foul during a loose ball, which would give the ball back to A after enforcement.

I agree, if that contact occurs during the return its enforced with B retaining possession.

Help me with the live ball enforced as a dead ball?

If a kid blows up another kid 30 yards behind a live ball, the enforcement spot is the spot of the foul. Its a live ball foul, why would you treat it as a dead ball foul? If you've got a USC during a live ball I can understand the treating it as a dead ball thing, but not a live ball PF.

Paul

Which rule code?

In my original post I thought I made it clear that the ball was still in the air when the block occured.

I absolutely am not calling a PF on the interception scenario so long as the QB is no longer acting as a passer. As far as I'm concerned he is fair game to block. Others?

I will admit that it was unclear to me. You did say the ball was in the air, but you did not make it clear the ball was still in the air at the time of the contact. In the description I would think it would be kind of hard to accomplish all of this with the ball still in the air. That being said, you clarified what you meant, but it was confusing.

Peace

Block, yes. Flatten? No.

Always get the safety fouls.

Sorry, my ruleset is showing. NCAA Rules (the OP didn't say).

Thanks, my head is always thinking Fed first. Good to know there is a difference here.

I've always disliked the fact that something that far away can ruin a great long gain. Its a safety thing, so you've got to get it, but to bring it all the way back or even cancel a score is a severe enforcement.

This is one of the Fed rules that bug me the most. I get the idea that if you have severe enforcement, hopefully that will eliminate the action. But consider these two (and correct me if my understanding of the FED enforcement on these is incorrect).

Team A on it's 2 yard line, breaks one loose and is around the 50. Team B lineman sees this and punches a Team A player. The runner is tackled at the 10.

Situation 1) Nothing else happens - you have a live ball PF on B, and no score on the play. So B gets away with his actions (other than the ejection).

Situation 2) Team A lineman retaliates, punching Team B. You have offsetting live ball fouls, the play comes back to the 2.

Both of these seem problematical to me. Change both punches to just cheap shots, and you don't even get an ejection - and B "gets away" with it.

mbcrowder, I couldn't agree more.

Take your 2nd scenario a little further, the retaliation is after the play is dead. So now you've got live ball on B, dead ball on A. A still gets their long gain as this would be 1st and 10 from the B 20 yard line (B's goes half the distance to the 5 and then back 15 for A's dead-ball PF). The timing of the fouls becomes critical, you've gotta know the ball status and the implications of offsetting vs. live-ball dead-ball are huge. A seems to have a huge advantage to waiting until after the play is done to retaliate for the PF.

I'd think that a punch could be construed as fighting, then call an USC (with the ejection), which is enforced as a dead-ball foul. Then it doesn't wipe out team A's run. In the second scenario, both are dead-ball USC (with ejections) and the same enforcement applies.

As for cheap shots, I agree. If they are both live-ball, sucks for A.

I think I may be confused by this description... but wouldn't the personal foul on B be penalized from the end of A's run? So after penalty enforcement, first and ten for A at B's 5 yard line.

And even if you call the contact a personal foul, you still can eject the B lineman from the game under the last line of the penalty description in Rule 9-4.... "Disqualification also if any foul is flagrant - (S47)."

This would be true for a "cheap shot" too if you decide that the contact fit
the description of 9-4-3g. " Make any other contact with an opponent which is deemed unnecessary and which incites roughness."

Suudy, I don't think you can call USC for fighting. PF's involve contact, USCs are non-contact fouls. You can still have the ejection for fighting but its a PF and not a USC (at least in Fed).

This becomes important because two USCs result in DQ whereas a player can have any number of PFs.

Indeed. I had always thought fighting was considered USC. It is swinging at (and missing) that is USC. Landing the blow is a PF (with ejection).

If they appear to be trying to get towards the play, sure. They don't know "the ball is being downed".

Perhaps there should be some way to signal to everyone on the field that a fair catch has been signaled. Other than that, I don't see how you can say anyone is "out of play" in an open field situation like a kick from scrimmage. If they want to be protected, they should sit or kneel; otherwise, what are they doing on the field?

Robert

Whether a player is "flattened" is a function of his own action as much as that of the blocking player's form. Contact that might be perfectly legal could, depending on how the opponent plays, result in a player's being flattened as much as a KO punch. You can't officiate based on how a player reacts to being hit, only on how they hit.

The rules of the game are designed to discourage many forms of cheap shot by allowing players a chance to defend themselves against a hit; they don't guarantee that all players will effectively so defend themselves.

In this case it seems the player of team B ran a loop around the kicker, but the kicker just didn't see him coming. He may very well have been focusing too far downfield, plus the helmets do restrict vision. As with bicycle & motorcycle helmets, there's a safety tradeoff there.

Robert

If a player is not running towards a play, anyone better be careful if they choose to take out that player. And if a player is clearly down, because they think the play is not over that does not give them the right to level an either. Now you can disagree, but a punter that is 40 yards away from a play and has not even attempted to go towards that play, is not just fair game. This is where experience comes into play and I think I can tell the difference between a cheap shot and someone actively trying to get involved in the play.

Peace