Int. grounding from shotgun snap
 

In a freshman game tonight, A was lined up in shotgun. The QB took the snap from about 3 or 4 yards from the center and threw the ball forward into the ground. Refs let it go. Two plays later, did the same thing.

Did I miss the meeting where this rule was changed? I thought in order to spike the ball, it had to be a hand to hand snap.

You are correct, in order to legally spike the ball the snap must be hand to hand.

This should have been called an illegal forward pass. 5 yard penalty from the spot of the foul and loss of down.

Spiking the ball
 

Rule 2 - D Directly from the rule book

It is legal to conserve time by intentionally throwing the ball forward to the ground immediately after receiving a direct hand-to-hand snap.

Int. Grounding from shotgun
 

How can you call an illegal forward pass if the QB is in a shot gun formation and presumably there is a RB with in 2 yards of him throwing the ball down to the ground? If I'm wearing the WH and this happens in a game I'm going to rule for an incomplete pass set the ball up and blow it ready for play

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

Legal. Deliberate grounding has two musts:

1. avoid a loss of yardage
2. no eligible receiver in the area

I know you cant get into the mind of the qb but from the play explained you can pretty much tell the intent of the play.

Just because there is a receiver in the area does not mean you can't have intentional grounding or illegal forward pass.

If the player is trying to conserve time or avoid a big loss you may have to judge his intentions.

Yes I will give the player the benefit of the doubt but will take a good look at it before i decide.:rolleyes:

I can call an illegal forward pass because he obviously is not throwing it to an eligible receiver.

I have never seen a QB throw this clock-stopping pass anywhere but directly to the ground. The only difference between this pass and the legal pass to stop the clock is the position of the QB. Both passes are thrown to the ground, not near an eligbile receiver. I've never seen a shotgun formation where there was a back on the ground at the feet of the QB waiting for the pass.

As a WH, you do not have the option of ignoring the rule and the intent of the rule.

This is an illegal forward pass that will carry a 5-yard penalty and loss of down from the spot of the foul.

Intentional grounding
 

Actually, this is intentional grounding, not illegal forward pass. The pass is behind the LOS, so it is legal. (7-5-1 defines this) This actually falls under 7-5-2-d which, if you look at the penalty summary at the end of the section, clearly calls it intentional grounding.

Now throw this twist into it: QB is getting rushed and sees his RB trying to block and he throws it as his RB's feet obviously avoiding the sack but you don't call that an illegal forward pass or intentional grounding. WHY???? Because you always say he had an eligible receiver in the area!!!! Same thing as being in a shotgun formation and spiking the ball, just that he is not being rushed and you're going to call illegal forward pass or intentional grounding. I see why the coaches get screwed up and yell at us the way that they do because you're not being consistant. If you don't call it when the QB is being rushed you better not call it when he is not being rushed!!!!!!

REPLY: Intentional gounding is most certainly an illegal forward pass. In the penalty section for 7-5, they distinguish intentional grounding because of its own special signal. But intentional grounding is clearly one of the illegal forward passes. Here's the rule...

"ART. 2… An illegal forward pass is a foul. The illegal forward passes are:
a. A pass after team possession has changed during the down.
b. A pass from beyond the neutral zone.
c. A pass intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an eligible offensive receiver.
d. A pass intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yardage or to conserve time.
e. A second or subsequent forward pass thrown during a down
EXCEPTION: It is legal to conserve time by intentionally throwing the ball forward to the ground immediately after receiving a direct hand-to-hand snap."


REPLY: How exactly does the fact that the ball was grounded behind the neutral zone make it legal???

Context matters.

It most certainly is a foul in a spiked shotgun. It certainly isn't a foul if the QB, under pressure, puts it at the feet of the RB.

As for the coaches, I couldn't possibly care less what they think.

According to the rules: IT IS A FOUL IF THE QB IS UNDER DURESS AND THROWS THE BALL AWAY TO AVOID LOSS OF YARDAGE OR TO CONSERVE TIME!!!!

Under pressure and throwing at the RB's feet IS THROWING THE BALL AWAY TO AVOID LOSS OF YARDAGE!!!! AGAIN if you don't throw the flag for this cal YOU CAN NOT throw the flag for being in a shotgun formation and doing the same thing!!!!

CONSISTANCY!!!!!!!!!!!! OBVIOUSLY A FEW OF YOU DON'T HAVE IT!!!!!!!!!!

Who said I'm not going to call intentional grounding if he throws it at his feet? Thou makest strange assumptions.

Excuse me while I cry cause you yelled at me. Boo hoo. Oh, I can do whatever I like, too.

And the word is consistency. With an "e."

That's only since they legalized the spike. Before that, you'd've seen them throw it high over a sideline receiver's head.

What do you do with clock if he takes snap in shotgun and throws directly to ground? takes hand to hand snap trys to throw to ground and hits center's leg?

The clock stops for the incomplete pass but the WH has the authority to start it on the ready.

Assuming the pass hits the center's leg and then falls to the ground then I would say it is a legal spike. There is a play in the case book similiar to this other than the ball comes back up to the QB and he spikes it again. In this situation the 2nd throw is an illegal forward pass. Unless the center makes an attempt to catch it or does catch it it is not illegal touching.

MRH beat me to it, with the case book play about a pass hitting a lineman in the back. We had this same thing happen Friday night but called intentional grounding because the QB was under duress and was unloading the ball to avoid loss of yardage, etc. It does help to stop and think once in awhile.

I'm glad you are not in our organization. Its people like you that give the good officials a bad name. Why don't you do us all a favor and QUIT!!! You "can do whatever you like" So you think you are above the rules. Well in my eyes you're nothing more than pond scum and you would never officiate a varsity game in our organization.

Boo hoo hoo. I'm really hurt, now.

If you guys allow a spike from the shotgun, it's your organization that has problems. Notice that nobody else here advocates a spike from the shotgun being legal. I guess everyone else should quit, too. And perhaps you should post more than 4 times before calling people names. Just a thought that I'm sure you'll ignore, troll.

A shotgun spike is not a legal spike.

These are two different situations. The spike is legal only within a very specific set of circumstances. It is not legal from the shotgun, and in that case breaks this rule: "A pass intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yardage or to conserve time."

Yes they are two different situations but both have the same ending. Both are throwing the ball away to conserve time or loss of yardage. I love how everyone seems to think its ok to throw the ball at the RB's feet when the QB is being rushed but what is he trying to do (hint...doesn't want to get sacked) avoid loss of yardage!!!??? So my point is if there is an elligible receiver in the area when the QB is throwing at his feet when the QB is being rushed and you let that go then justify throwing an intentional grounding call when the QB is in a shotgun formation and has an eligible receiver in the area and throws the ball to the ground. I know its a judgement call and you are not in the head of the QB but we all know what he is doing when he throws the ball at his receiver's feet when he is being rushed.

What you are missing is the specific rule that specifies the legality of spiking the ball to stop the clock. You seem, however, to just be wanting to argue instead of learn. I don't have the energy for just arguing right now.

I see why you have over 4000 postings!!! Its because you suck and don't get any varsity games. I see that no one is advocating the shot gun spike but everyone is allowing the the ball thrown at the RB's feet to save loss of yardage. Its the same point that you, stupid moron that you are, are failing to realize. So you keep posting and keep doing the sub varsity games while those of us that know the rules and know how to officiate and keep control of the game keep going to officiate the state finals on a regular basis.

I know the specific rule and what it states. There also is a specific rule on intentional grounding and we all seem to overlook that rule "because there is an elligible receiver in the area"

Thank you for your response to Rich. I was looking for a reason to expand my ignore list.

Gentlemen, what happened to our professional ethics & couresty towards our fellow officials. Just because one of us says something out-of-place, that doesn't give the rest of us any reason what so ever to act or respond in a like or worse manner. That stuff just doesn't belong on an official's professional forum...;)

Cute I see you defend your boyfreind really well...lmao

Wesels, I feel sorry for the crew you're on if your conduct on this forum is a reflection of your game management skills.

Where's the moderator? Wesel's posts are an embarassment to this forum and should be deleted.

I am a varsity crew chief. I work every week, sometime 2-3 games a week depending on availability. I formed my crew in 2003 after moving here and the same core 3 officials have been on the crew since then.

Around here we all work subvarsity games, too. How am I supposed to improve my crew or bring new officials into the sport or on my crew unless I'm there to provide some direction, mentoring, and support?

Oh: You are a troll who has just found my ignore list.

I reviewed a game film and saw this intentional grounding call:

The QB was under duress, the WR goes down and in (probably should have been down and out from looks of defense), the QB throws to the down and out. Nobody in the area. There was nothing obvious about this play.

When do you consider missed route?
When do you consider the ability of the passer?
I hear "obvious" thrown around alot, but I wish everything was obvious to me.

You always consider BOTH. Your real judgement here is - was the QB trying to throw the ball to someone, or was he simply trying to not get sacked. And if the latter, THEN you consider whether he managed to get the ball close enough to his receiver to not have a foul. If the former, then you don't have IG, even if the receiver ran the wrong route.

No, it's not always obvious, but with the QB under duress, you've got to err on the side of calling it.

I would think that an IG flag would only come from the WH. Zebras downfield aren't in the best position to determine if the QB was under duress. I suppose the WH can flag and then confer with his crew to make sure the flag was legit if he calls grounding. Otherwise, the WH is watching the QB to see what he does, and the WH has to peek downfield looking for a receiver where the ball was thrown, and at the same time make sure no one roughs the QB. A lot to keep track of!