Illegal Motion vs False Start
 

I know there is something similar to this topic right now but wanted everyone to know when they see the title the topic is known, sorry.

I am just curious how everyone sees the difference.

My main reason for this is to see how we should handle these plays. Live Ball or Dead Ball (kill it when it happens)

An "A" player with his hand on the ground lined up as an interior lineman lifts his hand. My interpretation here is a FALSE START

An "A" player with his hands on his knees who is lined up as an interior lineman stands up, rocks back, or rocks forward. My interpretation here is a "FALSE START"(Unless of course it is obvious the lineman is shifting legal to another spot on the line, a whole other discussion)

An "A" Player with his elbows on his knees lined up as an interior lineman is placing or trying to place his hand at the instance the ball is snapped. My interpretation here is a FALSE START

This is how "I" see these plays.

I see False starts as those movements by interior lineman. (I know it is possible for a back to have a false start as well like missing the count and moving forward to soon)

Illegal Motion I view as movement on the backfield players prior to the snap. (i.e. moving forward)

The backs have a chance to reset or go in motion.

I have no rule books in front as of now for this discussion but will shortly and i may and probably will find myself to have some holes in my interpretation.

But feel this is a good topic to discuss.

I would say, "Please refer to one of the other 20 times we've had this argument here", but people are going to chime in anyway, so it looks like we're having this argument again.

You will find it virtually split down the middle between people that want a back moving early called a false start, and those that want it called illegal motion.

My answer - you know it when you see it, and defense's reaction (or lack thereof) DOES matter.

Actually ... "An "A" Player with his elbows on his knees lined up as an interior lineman is placing or trying to place his hand at the instance the ball is snapped. My interpretation here is a FALSE START" is not a false start - it's illegal motion. He's not illegal until that ball is snapped, and he didn't simulate the start of the play. You should blow False Starts dead, but illegal motion is a live ball foul. This one should not be killed.

I would say that one is an illegal shift, not illegal motion, although they are both 5 yard LB fouls. Support for my opinion would be the following case play.

7.2.7 Situation: The quarterback by voice command has signaled his teammates to assume a set position while he is standing upright behind the center. The quarterback steps forward and places his hands under the center to receive the snap: (a) at the instant the snap is made; or (b) which is made after he is motionless, but prior to one second having elapsed; or (c) which is made after he is motionless for one second; or (d) which is made after he is motionless for one second, but while he is stepping backward with one foot as the snap is made.
Ruling: In (a), it is illegal motion. In (b), it is an illegal shift. In (c), it is legal. In (d), it is legal unless a teammate is also in motion at the snap.
Comment: If the quarterback drops his hands under the snapper without stepping forward, it is a shift and not motion. (2-38; 7-2-6)


The bold text above is similar to the lineman going from elbows on knees to on ground. He is not moving his feet forward, just his hands, so shift instead of motion.

I agree the other 2 would be a FS.

Sorry, but I just can't fathom why this is such as issue.

In your first play - lifting the hand is a false start by definition. An interior lineman can't lift his hand off the ground. If you want rule reference, look it up. :)

In your second play - it is a false start because getting up and rocking forward simulates action at the snap.

In the third play, your lineman is shifting at the time of the snap (going from two-point stance to three-point stance is a shift). Since he is shifting when the ball is snapped, it is an illegal shift. It is NOT a false start because it does not simulate action at the snap (as stated in the other thread, people get up at the snap, they don't go into a three-point stance when the ball is snapped).

To further support that argument, in plays one and two, it doesn't matter when the ball is snapped. The action itself is a foul. In the third one - the shift to a three-point stance is a legal shift. It becomes a foul ONLY if the ball is snapped less than one second after the legal shift. So the shift isn't what made the play illegal, it is the snap that made the shift illegal. Thusly, it is a foul similtanious with the snap - which makes it, by definition, a live ball foul.

Enough said? There - frustration vented. Now I have to get ready for my crew meeting, and believe me, this will not be a point of discussion.

In the third play... this may or may not be a legal shift, but will always be illegal motion. Just because the one lineman was going to a three point stance when the ball was snapped, by itself, does not constitute an illegal shift.

However, a lineman shifting to a three point stance when the ball is snapped will always be illegal motion:

7-2-7....the player in motion shall be at least 5 yards behind his LOS at the snap if he started from any position not clearly behind the line...

I have to disagree. In the third play, it will always be an illegal shift and will never be illegal motion. You need to read 7-2-7 a little further. The player in motion shall be at least 5 yards behind his line of scrimmage at the snap if he started from any position not clearly behind the line and did not establish himself as a back by stopping for at least one full second while no part of his body is breaking the vertical plane through the waistline of his nearest teammate who is on the line of scrimmage. The lineman in the third play isn't attempting to go in motion by this definition. He is merely getting set. This is a shift. This is completely legal until the snap of the ball makes it illegal, per 7-2-6. Call it illegal shift.

Scott

7-2-6 is the one that not called about 3/4 of the time! All must set fot 1 full second or it is illegal shift. If the Qb sticks his hands under center and immediately says go and snap is immediate then it is illegal shift. Most of the time this is let go!

REPLY: For the interior lineman who is in the process of placing his hand on the ground, I agree with mbcrowder...by itself, it's illegal motion. But I also agree with ABO that the entire situation might also be an illegal shift. The reason that the lineman's movement (by itself) can't be an illegal shift is very simple--he hasn't completed the movement. A (Federation) shift occurs when an offensive player moves from one set position to another set position. The fact that he wasn't set again means it's not a shift.

ABO's point recognizes the fact that this lineman isn't operating in a vacuum. It could very well be that the rest of the linemen had completed their 'shifts' to a three point stance less than the required second prior to our guy beginning his movement. Note that an illegal shift is a 'team' foul in that one person is never alone responsible. While that statement is always true for NCAA because of their definition of a shift, it is almost always true in Federation also.

I would say that is a "talk to" situation the first time and it probably won't happen again. It also is one of those things that is ticky tack to call if he does actually get stopped, but maybe for only a short second, not a long second. A bigger issue that needs to be called is if the lineman are "rolling" into the snap as they never get set after going down cuz in that case an advantage is occurring.

I'm going to stick with 7-2-6. After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head, or body for at least one second before the snap. illegal shift (Art. 6) - (S20).

The lineman goes from huddle to hands on knees. That's a legal shift. Afterwards, he begins to shift from hands on knees to 3 point and the ball is snapped before he can get to 3 point. This violates 7-2-6 and not 7-2-7! I leave 7-2-7 to motion by backs -- forward motion or 2 in motion at once. If the lineman was trying to establish himself as a back and go in motion, as per 7-2-7, and didn't do it correctly, I'd flag him for illegal motion. However, just trying to shift to a new stance and not conforming to 7-2-6, it's illegal shift.

Scott

I disagree MJT. I see this alot on 3 and short and 4th and short and the offense is running a sneak. The QB never really is ever set!

REPLY: FedEx...let's take a look at 7-2-6. It says "After a huddle or a shift..." So we know the 'huddle' is irrelevant to this play. So if 7-2-6 is to apply, there must have been a 'shift.' The definition of a shift requires that at least one player, after taking a set position, moves to another set position. Since the lineman never reached his new set position, exactly when did this shift take place?

Like I said, there could have been an illegal shift in this play depending on when the other linemen went to their final three-point stances. But if all the other linemen were set in their stances (for at least a second) and this lummox then began to drop but was still in the process of getting to his new set position, he hasn't yet shifted so it can't be an illegal shift.

But call it whatever you care to as long as you call it:)

Fedex, the only way you can have 7-2-6 is if two or more players are involved. (except maybe for the QB)

In other words...one player alone (shifting) cannot cause an illegal shift.

However illegal motion can only involve one player...never two or more.

Case: all 11 players have gone to there pre-snap positions. The interior lineman are in a three point stance except for the left guard who is in in a two point stance. All 11 players have paused for one second and no player has gone in motion. As the left guard is shifting to a three point stance (with out a false start) the ball is snapped.

Illegal shift? Illegal motion?

Bob,

Thanks for the clarification. I read your word document on motion vs shift and it has cleared it up for me. So, if the lineman goes from 2 point to 3 point and doesn't make it to the ground when the ball is snapped, it's illegal motion. If he makes it to the ground and 1 second hasn't elapsed before the snap, it's an illegal shift, right?

Scott

REPLY: Yes...that's how I read it anyway. Technically, at least.

REPLY: ABO...I don't quite follow. If everyone is set and the QB steps to the snapper and sets, after which the snap occurs immediately (less than one second later), I contend you have an illegal shift. One player has caused this illegal shift. In NCAA, you'd be correct because their definition of a shift is different than the Fed's.

And, if on signal two backs mistakenly both begin motion parallel to the LOS and the ball is snapped, I would call this illegal motion. [Two players in motion at the snap]

Am I missing something in your post?

Um ... illegal motion is USUALLY more than 1 player. What else do you call 2 men in motion at the snap?

Bob Im still trying to understand the QB exception if there is one for Fed...Ill look it up.

And yes two players in motion is Illegal motion, but I think its an illegal shift too. I would of just called this an Illegal shift.

My last post definitely had some holes in it.

Sorry!!!!!!!!!!!
 

For bringing this up.

The gist of all this from my end was to get an answer as to whether kill the play or let it go and call live ball.

From the responses

Kill the false starts obviously.

The lineman putting his hand down was my grey area.

From the majority here you are saying live ball illegal shift/motion let the play go and see what happens.

OK thanks and sorry for the long discussion:o

REPLY: I just used the QB play as an example. All I was trying to get at is that the Fed definition of 'shift' involves the movement of one or more players to a new set position. So even if one player moved to a new position and reset, everyone needs to be stopped for that one required second. If the snap goes off less than a second after he sets, you have an illegal shift. NCAA rules are different because their definition of a shift requires two or more players to new set positions. So the play I gave would be legal in an NCAA game.

As for two players in motion, it can only be an illegal shift if:
(a) they began moving less than a second after the rest of their team was set, or
(b) one of them stopped just prior to the snap (in which case it couldn't be illegal motion).

REPLY: BoBo...nothing to be sorry for. You asked a good question and generated some discussion. And it seems you got your answer. Good topic.

New Twist to Illegal Motion
 

Team A lines up with both slots 1 yard behind the tight ends. One of the slot players starts in motion after taking one step backwards A snaps the ball. Is this Illegal Motion. My first thought was that the player in motion had to be in motion for 1 second. but after looking in the rules book I believe I was wrong. But does A player have to be 5 yards deep before the snap.:rolleyes:

I've alway heard the mantra "one in motion (illegally) one arm, two in motion two arms" for the signa. Thus the description above (two players in motion, parallel to the LOS) is, at least as I've seen it called, an illegal shift.

Hmmm.... Something to bring up at our next meeting.

Ok, this may of been covered but what do we have in this play...

Case: all 11 players have gone to there pre-snap positions. The interior lineman are in a three point stance except for the left guard who is in in a two point stance. All 11 players have paused for one second and no player has gone in motion. As the left guard is shifting to a three point stance (with out a false start) the ball is snapped.

Illegal shift? Illegal motion?

I'm getting a little confused.

REPLY: I'd say illegal motion. Since the lineman was still moving, he never completed the shift. Therefore it can't be an illegal shift. However, it he had just completed the shift (reset) and the snap was immediately therafter (less then one second later), it would be an illegal shift.

REPLY: Consider NF 7-2-7:

"ART. 7… Not more than one Team A player may be in motion at the snap and then only if such motion is not toward his opponent's goal line..."

PENALTY: ... illegal motion (Art. 7)--(S20)

No. There was a time way back when a back in motion had to be at least 5 yards behind his LOS, but now that applies only to a lineman becoming a back without setting. "1 yard behind the tight ends" means a backfield position, so if that player had already set, it's legal. And this "jump motion" is very common by teams using the double wing.

Fed was the last to abolish the "clearly backward" requirement for the MiM, and that was 20+ years ago.

Robert