Bag a fumble behind LOS
 

NFHS - Is there a need to throw a bean bag when the fumble spot is behind the LOS? I say no, but I had no support at tonight's meeting. As I see it, when there is a fumble, it is a loose ball play up until someone gains possession. If a foul by A occurs between the snap and the recovery, there are two possible spots for penalty enforcement: (1) The basic spot which is the previous spot on a loose ball play, and (2) the spot of the foul if it happens behind the basic spot. This is administered from the flag and NEVER the spot of lost possession. Am I correct? Is there something I am neglecting such as: (1) An inadvertent whistle that occurs while the ball is loose (Maybe, but what coach would choose to take the result of the play which is a loss of yardage and a down), or (2) Some "End of the related run" situation that I am overlooking? Thanks......

Ask your colleagues WHY this needs to be bagged. Prepare to hear a lot of BS answers, including "we've always done that." I still see HS officials bagging interceptions every week.

There's no reason to have a bag behind the NZ but I think everyone does it anyway, good habit I guess.

Another question you could ask is if you bag a backwards pass beyond the NZ? Its the end of a run and I think most forget/dont know to do it.

In fact ANY loss of possession (besides backward handing) beyond the NZ should have some type of marker...flag or bean bag.

Is there a need to for penalty enforcement? No. Lots of people will tell you not to do it but it certainly doesn't hurt anything if you do.

We bag them, whether they're behind the LOS or not. While it's means nothing for penalty enforcement, to me it's just automatic. i don't have to concern myself with, "Is that behind the LOS or not?" Who cares? Throw it and sort it out later if necessary. It also tells your partners that the ball is loose. I don't see a problem with it.

Me either, but if I don't get one dropped as the ball comes out as the QB's sacked, I don't get annoyed with myself.

Fumble out of bounds. Which might mean the wings are the only ones that bag it.

Third and 3 at A's 40 yardline. A12 hands off to A32 who sweeps right. B68 yanks A32's facemask at the A 39 yardline, causing a fumble. 15 yards enforced from the A 39, no? So beanbag needed at fumble spot.

Huh?:confused:

You're telling us that you'd lob a flag AND a beanbag to the same spot on this play?

Before answering, consider this - if the facemask occurred at the 39, and the fumble at the 38 ... where are you enforcing from?

the bagged interception sure helps the stat guys!

That's too bad cuz I'm never going to bag in INT and then have to go get my bag 50 yards back upfield when they get tackled at the 20. The stat guys can get if off the video if they need to.

Good point, considering that our sole purpose on the field, and the motivation behind our actions, is to help the stat guys.

bean bags on loose ball plays
 

According to 10.3.1.c, a fumble behind the line is a loose ball play. And according to 10.4.2.b, the enforcement spot for a penalty on a loose ball play is always the previous spot. Makes no difference if the ball goes out of bounds or not, nor if the ball is fumbled from behind the line and rolls beyond the line. Therefore, a beanbag means nothing and should not be thrown. In fact, about the only case for a beanbag behind the LOS is when it is a passing play, and R is the only one in proximity and the QB is being driven back prior to a sack. The beanbag can be used to mark the progress spot since the wing officials are most likely downfield.
Hope that helps.

Raider!

I'm enforcing from the 40 as this is a loose ball play and the basic spot is the previous spot. Beanbag isn't needed.

You bean bag the spot because it is not always clear where the spot is. Unless you are a wing you might not realize the spot is behind the LOS. You cannot assume anything. Also it tells everyone you have a fumble and your crew members not seeing the fumble know we now have a loose ball instead of assuming the player is down.

Peace

Let's be honest, a likely scenario (especially with newer guys) is that no matter where it occured, they forget to bag it. I want it to become instinctive for my crew to get a bag onto the spot for any fumble they see.

So I say bag 'em all. The last thing I would want a member of my crew to be doing was thinking "Mmm, where did that occur? Do I need to bag it or not?". Bag it and continue officiating.

At the end of the day you'll end the down by picking up your bag and putting it back in your belt. It won't kill you to pick it up one more time than was strictly necessary, whereas it might leave you with egg on your face if you miss bagging a fumble that needed it.

Exactly!!!!!

Here's what I teach at our local association:
Beanbag all fumbles, including those behind the line.
There is no need to beanbag behind the line, but:
It tells everyone, including your crew, that there is a fumble.
It keeps you in the habit of beanbagging fumbles so you don't have to think about it.
It prevents you from having to decide if it is behind the line.

This what we do as well and why.

REPLY: For Fed, there's no rule-based reason for bagging the spot of a fumble or backward pass behind the neutral. By that I mean there will never be a need to know on what yardline the fumble/pass occurred. Many do drop the bag to alert their crewmates that the ball is loose.

As Texas Aggie mentioned, it is required in NCAA rules because of the potential for a forward fumble out-of-bounds and the need to know where that fumble occurred.

maybe a little confused or tired
 

Play situation.

2nd and 10 from A's40

QB A12 drops back to pass and is hit and fumbles on A's (his own) 30. He fumbles when hit and the ball is bouncing towards A's goalline.

A22 sees B55 is about to recover the football at A's 25.

A22 tackles B55 at A's 25 so A33 can recover the football.

A33 recovers the football A's 22.

So you are all telling me that illegal use of hands penalty on A22 will be inforced from the previous spot A's 40 if accepted.

I know in this situation it will probably be declined because of the loss of yardage but just go with me here for the sake of the arguement.

That to me would seem pretty advantageous for team A to do that rather than risk the loss of the football.

Am I missing something here???:confused:

Bobo,

A couple things here....

First, the tackle by A22 on B55 is technically holding, not illegal use of hands.

Second, even though no player is in possession of the ball, fundamentally we know that Team A is still in "team possession" of the ball and because they were the ones to put it in play originally and there has not be a change of possession, by definition we know that they are still considered the "offense".

So we have a fumble behind the NZ, so we have loose-ball play by definition. We also know that the Basic Spot for loose-ball play is the Previous Spot.

But the key here is that we have a foul (holding) by the offense behind the Basic Spot. The All-But-One principle tells us that these fouls are penalized from the spot of the foul.

So we can back Team A up 10 yards from the spot of the foul (A-25) and have 2nd down again so we would have A 2/35 @ A-15. Clock on RFP

or more likely, Team B can decline the penalty and have 3rd down, A 3/28 @ A-22. Clock on RFP.

You should enforce from the 39 because the foul happened behind the basic spot (All-But-One).

Canadian Mechanic
 

CANADIAN MECHANIC:

We bag all fumbles.

Previous spot foul due to the inclusion of a fumble on the play, making it a loose-ball play. Had there not been a fumble, enforce from the 39, or the end of the run.

The "all but one" principle applies to fouls by the OFFENSE behind the basic spot. In the cited play, the foul was on the defense.

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

Loose Ball Interference. Huge no-no up here.

B 1D/10 @ A-25.

I have a question... what does the beanbag tell you other than you have a fumble?

1. The spot of first touching.
2. The spot of the momentum exception.
3. The end of the kick on a scrimmage kick. (for penalty enforcement)
4. Where the QB threw a ball from if close to LOS and not sure if he was past the LOS or not. (some will drop bag-look-then flag, while some will drop flag-look-pick up flag if not past LOS)
5. To mark the OB spot if you have to leave that spot to help protect players that go OOB's and into a team bench area.

Probably more, but that's all I got out of my head at this time.

Thanks... do you think you could help me out with the topic i posted on linesman duties?

I just got the notes from our evaluator for last Fri's game. Like other have said, I'm in the habit of bean bagging all fumbles. Of course our evaluator noted that I bagged a fumble behind the LOS, then noted after the game that it isn't necessary.

His argument is that the state evaluators would frown on this and that we would be graded down for state assignments. Of course I understood this, and he noted that in practice, there is no problem bagging fumbles behind the LOS. But those state evaulators....

This makes me wonder if the state evaluators were ever officials.

I think some state evaluators just nit pick so they dont seem like they have wasted their time at a game. They feel they have to find something to correct that way crews dont think they have officiating mastered.

Just my opinion:D