Which Order to Give Signals
 

I had the following play:

Fourth down. Player in position to punt. Ball goes over his head. He chases it down and immediately falls on it. B player comes in and jumps on him. Flag for late hit.

Ball went to B on downs and B was penalized 15 yards for a dead ball personal foul.

When it came time to signal I was unsure which was the correct order. Do you signal first down then dead ball personal then first down after setting chains? Or, just dead ball personal, set the chains and then first down?

I imagine the fans in the stands would be wondering why you walk off 15 then give the ball to receiving team after the penalty.

If I remember correctly, this was in Referee Mag last year as a side note. I think you give the first down signal first, then the DB and the others afterwards.

I recall reading that same article and I remember it the same way you do, Grant.

I did not read the referee article, and would submit that finding "facts" there or suggested "proper" procedures has been problematical in the past.

Do as you normally do. Signal DB (when appropriate), signal the foul, then tell everyone the down. Why would it be any different in this particular instance?

Dead ball
PF on B
First down for B.

And no, this would not be confusing to anyone - we've all seen fouls on B during a return or DB PF's on B after a return was over, and they are all signalled just like this one.

What Grant is describing is how it reads in the NFHS official manual.It was a change for 2006-07

I whole heartedly agree, but I think the article was in the same issue with the '06 Fed changes.

I would signal exactly as described by MCrowder. Can't see any reason to do it any other way.

So, you're saying forget the manual and do it your way? Any other rules/mechanics you treat "cafeteria style"?

Keep in mind that MC and several of us work NCAA only (even for HS). It was never made clear in the original play or that in the Referee article Fed mechanics are involved.

I agree with the order. I make sure that the first down signal is given at the new LOS (after the yardage is marked off) and not at the spot of the foul so as not to confuse people into thinking that it would be more than 1st and 10.

Well, did you read the section in the NF book?

Here it is:
G: when dead-ball fouls occur after fourth down:
1: Signal any live ball fouls
2: Signal first down
3: Signal dead ball
4: Signal the dead ball foul.

If your have live ball fouls to deal with, why in the world are you then doing steps 2,3 and 4?

In case you haven't been dealing with NFHS publications, they do have errors in them. In this case, this sequence is wrong as written.

I have no problem if an official wants to do steps 3,4,2 or 2,3,4. Both are
perfectly correct in my opinion, though I favor steps 3,4,2 because the normal handling of penalties is to signal the foul, mark off the penalty and them signal either the next down (or LOD) or signal first down. That makes more sense to me.

Now, what's for lunch in the cafeteria?

Play situation:
4 and 8th from A 48. A is illegally in motion when the ball is snapped way over the punters head. He falls on the ball at the A 20. After he falls on the ball, B99 jumps on the punter.

So according to the Official's Manual, the reporting sequence would look like:
1. Signal live ball foul
2. Decline penalty
3. Signal first down for team B
4. Dead ball
5. Personal Foul

Even though there is a live ball foul, you would still have to go through the dead ball reporting.

Now, as for the signalling order, for those of you who have posted here and other boards know I am a fairly by the book person. I would probably go by the book here. Now, can you give the LBF then the DBF followed by a first down, certainly.

Something else I'm learning is that we, as officials, have a lot of varience in mechanics, philosophies, and procedures. There are even differences between NCAA D1 conferences. Not really sure why that is, but for some reason various conferences, states, or associations choose to do it their own way. I guess they are in line at the cafe too.

Canadian Mechanic
 

The R would whistle the play dead and stop the clock. Then throw the flag. His signalling is:

1. UR - Piling On
2. First Down to B

Don't assume the live ball foul has to be on team-A. It could be just as easily on team-B therefore the signalling sequence is incorrect.

From my Fed mechanics manual (2006-2007), p. 42, under "Administering Penalties":

G. When dead-ball fouls occur after fourth down.
1. Signal any live-ball fouls.
2. Signal first down.
3. Signal dead ball.
4. Signal the dead-ball fouls.

That said, I suspect this is intended only for plays without a change of possession. Seems to me that the "standard" order would work fine here.

First point - the original post said nothing about a live-ball foul on either team. Why you muddied up the issue what that is beyond me, but OK, have your fun.
Second point - if the live-ball foul were on B, followed by a dead-ball foul on B, you would never have to worry about signaling the first down for B. Again, you're taking a very simple situation and making it very complicated.

And the cafeteria is featuring, crow served specifically for you and MCrowder.

Really? What in the world for? The OP made no mention whatsoever of this being a FED situation, and what I said is correct for the ruleset I work - NCAA rules. So ... why am I to eat crow?!?!

Can you provide a reference for NCAA that bears you out? If so, and you are correct, I will take my crow medium well with mushrooms and onions.

Why does Fed even bother to give a mechanic for something like this? Why not a general instruction to "present the facts in order of their occurrence and resolution", and let the official apply common sense? That is, recap in order. (They even do that in Rugby Union.)

If the first down is awarded last, it should be signaled last. If the first down is awarded and then penalty yardage applied after the line-to-gain is established, that's the order they should be signaled. A dead ball signal should be given in the order of occurrence of the dead ball, or first if the ball remained dead since the last administrative action.

Can anyone describe a situation in which this common sense rule would give ambiguous results, or in which a specified mechanic would make things clearer than this general procedure?

Robert