Illegal Forward Pass Situation
 

NCAA-

A's ball 4th and 12 on B's 47. A2 catches A1's pass at B's 31 where he immediately gets hit. Before being tackled, A2 throws the ball to A3 who is at B's 29 and who then runs and is tackled at B's 26.

What is the result of the enforcement?

What game was this?? I had this very play emailed to me by a friend in Texas.

The ilegal fwd pass penalty is enforced from the spot of foul ((B31). The 5 yards puts it at the B36, short of the line to gain (B35). Ball goes over as the penalty includes loss of down. B 1 and 10 at B36.

If they had done it more than 5 yards past the LTG, you'd have a 1st down after penalty enforcement. Better have a bean bag down if it was completed!!

Bean bag??? Where and why?

I'm sorry, a flag, not a bean bag. If it would be a forward lateral beyong the LOS, you need a flag at the spot of the IFP cuz that is where the penalty is enforced from. If they were more than 5 yards past the LTG, you would still have a 1st down after the penalty enforcement.

Oh oh!!! You have been corrupted by the media!! ;-) "forward lateral" ?!?!?!?!?

You have a flag at the spot of the illegal forward pass..no need for a bag. You would need a bag if the pass was ruled a backward pass (or a "lateral" if you prefer ;-) )

Sorry on the "lateral" talk Mike! Sh*t happens when you rush! :D

Flag it forward, bag it backwards. How is that! :)

REPLY: Monte...you keep up that "forward lateral" stuff, and we're going to drop you from the fraternity and take away your key!

Everyone is correct, but you tend to second guess yourself on the last play of a 1-point game on a call that isn't made everyday. Fortunately, I have a very experienced and knowledgable crew to hold my hand and keep me smart. And of course, as soon as you realize what's about to happen when you enforce the penalty, you already know to start walking toward the sideline because the coach is going to want to talk about it.

Maybe MJT is getting flustered that the cold is coming and football is over. :(

You can keep the real cold up there thank you.

The "Boobs in the Booth" call every underhand toss a "lateral". Including forward. Lateral means sideways. Someone should make them read a dictionary. AND a rule book.

Bob

I could handle the cold, if we still had FB. My mind is not the same without working FB. :eek:

I know it's motherhood to point this out, but I know from posts in other forums, the LOD provision had messed up some of the enforcements or at least were questioned by the poster.

As pointed out, if the line-to-gain point has been reached after the yardage enforcement, the LOD provision does not apply. Otherwise, the LOD provision kicks in and could possibly cause the ball to be turned over to team-B.
In the heat of the battle, that can be forgotten. Especially if some coach starts questioning your enfrorcement. Nah, they wouldn't do that would they.

Agreed, that's why I like to remember it as "loss of the right to repeat the previous down". As you said, not important if the line to gain has been reached because then the previous down isn't necessary.

During this particular play, you can bet it was questioned by the coach!!!

Why bother reading the book when you can just talk off-the-cuff and nobody calls you on it?

Just a question that has an answer I am just not sure what it is. Why bag a backward pass? Wouldn't it continue to be part of the run and therefore not a basic spot?

I was speaking of NCAA rules and of backward passes that are thrown when the runner is beyond the NZ. We need that spot as it is the spot that marks the end of a run and we might have a foul that requires we know where the end of run is in order to make thye correct penalty enforcement.

REPLY: That's exactly the reason that you do bag it, because it can be the basic spot. The interval between the time of the backward pass until it is either (1.) possessed again, or (2.) dead by rule is part of the previous running play. Therefore any fouls that occur during this interval, or the run that preceded it, use the spot of the pass (i.e. end of the run) as the basic spot. Consider this play for illustration:
PLAY: 3-10 from midfield. A10 runs to B's 40 where he pitches the ball backwards to A12. During A10's run, B34 grabbed and twisted his facemask at B's 48. A12 catches the pass and runs to B's 35 where he is tackled. RULING: The foul by B34 occurred during A10's run. The basic spot for enforcement of a foul that occurs during a running play is the end of the run. A10's run ended at B's 40 where he threw the backward pass. Enforcement will be from that spot. Result: A, 1-10 from B's 25. If you hadn't bagged the spot of the backward pass, you could not have enforced correctly.

This is exactly the same thing as if A10 fumbled at B's 40.

That is exactly why I asked and in NCAA. I wanted to know what the basic spot is. So, see if this is correct.

A has the ball at the B40. A10 muffs a snap at the B46. While the ball is loose B99 grabs A10's FM and jerks his head. A76 picks up the loose ball and advances to the (a)B30 or (b)B24.

It would be (a)A's ball 1st and 10 from the B25 after accepting the penalty or (b)A's ball 1st and 10 from the B24 after declining the penalty since the foul occurred during the 1st run.

There is only 1 run possible behind the NZ so until the run gets beyond the NZ and ends, we still have 1 run. In your play the enforcement will be from wherever that run ends, 30 or 24. To see the variation I think you are looking for, try this..
Ball snapped at 50. A runs to the B35 and throws a backward pass to a teammate. The teammate advances to the 10 and is tackled there There was a PF facemask by B as the backward pass was being thrownl. That penalty, if accepted would result in a having the ball at the 20. If they decline that penalty, then they get it at the 10.

Slightly off topic, but are illegal forward passes supposed to be blown dead? I've seen plays before where the IFP was only flagged and the play was allowed to continue....

Not blown dead in NCAA rules (unless of course it falls incomplete)

Same under NF rules. Flag it but let the play continue if the pass is completed.

So, under my scenario A gets the ball 1st and 10 from the 15 or 12 if accepted since the penalty is enforced from the end of the run?

In your play, the foul occurred during a muffed snap. This is a loose ball play. Basic spot is the previous spot.

In NCAA rules, yes. There would be no reason to even offer Team A an option of accepting or declining. They are going to get the yardage and the penalty as there is only 1 run on the play and it starts at the snap and ends downfield.

I agree Smiley, but a snap is a backwards pass.

Sorry, I was speaking NF rules.

No problem. Thanks for all the posts from everyone; they helped a lot.