wisconsin vs penn state - USC?

[blevak]

Is it just me, or did the Wisconsin team actually commit two intentional offsides penalties during the last 20 or so seconds of the first half? Seems to me this is should be either a USC and/or replacing time on the clock. Although the latter seems fair (in fact both do to me), I'm not entirely sure that replacing time is allowed.

[TXMike]

Apparently Paterno thought the same thing. Maybe this will help get the rule cleaned up in the offseason. Penn State did not have to permit a rekick. They could have taken the ball after the 1st kick and had a 5 yarder enforced from where the return ended. (They had a return didn't they?)

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by TXMike

Apparently Paterno thought the same thing. Maybe this will help get the rule cleaned up in the offseason. Penn State did not have to permit a rekick. They could have taken the ball after the 1st kick and had a 5 yarder enforced from where the return ended. (They had a return didn't they?)

To address a later post, you can probably deduce it was deliberately offsides when 10 guys (all but the kicker of course) are out to the 40 or so when the ball is kicked. And, yes, they did have a return, but they only got it out to about the 12 yrd line or so since, as noted, all the defenders got such a large head start by being so far offsides when the ball was kicked. This was not, of course, the difference in the game...it just irritates me when a team so blatently cheats.

[Theisey]

First of all, I have no team interest in the game so I can say that Wisconsin did NOT cheat.
They exploited a rule quirk that from the day the rule changes came out were talked about and beat up as being bad but also 100% legal at this time. All we needed was for a team to do it. In this case, do it twice because the penalty was accepted.

I do hope a change is in store for next year.

[RoyGardner]

We all should re-read the first couple of sections of the NCAA rule book. When a team runs a play like this that is an intentional foul (ie: coached and planned) we should be invoking the R's rule, call a USC, put the time back on the clock, and then re-kick.

And IMO when a team takes a clear intentional foul to gain an advantage, that is by definition cheating (dictionary definition of cheating: To violate rules deliberately, as in a game)

There should be absolutely no leeway for this type of "planned play". It makes a mockery of both the game and the rules.

[TXMike]

The coach admits it was a designed "play" and John Adams speaks out.

Badgers' ploy exploits new rule vs. PSU

By Rob Biertempfel
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Tuesday, November 7, 2006

Wisconsin coach Bret Bielema found a loophole in the NCAA rule book and worked it to his advantage in Saturday's 13-3 victory against Penn State.

However, Bielema might not get a chance to do it again. His call caused a stir in the college football community and could lead to a rule change next season.

After scoring with 24 seconds left in the second quarter, nearly everyone on Wisconsin's kick team was blatantly offside on back-to-back kickoffs.

Under an NCAA rule put in place this year, the clock begins running the moment the ball is kicked. So when Wisconsin lined up for its third kickoff, only four seconds remained in the half.


The third kickoff was a squib -- with none of the Badgers offside -- which was returned to the 39-yard line as time expired.

"Obviously, that's taking advantage of the rules and shouldn't be allowed," John Adams, the NCAA's rules interpreter, said Monday. "We certainly wouldn't condone that."

Yesterday, during his weekly press conference, Bielema offered no apologies.

"It worked out exactly as we envisioned it," Bielema said. "It was something that we had practiced."

Bielema was able to burn the clock because of a rule the NCAA playing rules oversight panel approved during the offseason. The rationale for the rule change was that it would help trim the length of games by about five minutes.

"I don't necessarily agree with the rule the way that it's written," Bielema said. "But I knew the rule, and I wanted to maximize it. I have to put my team in a position to have success."

After the second kickoff attempt, Penn State coach Joe Paterno ran onto the field and asked why the referees had not called an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty against Wisconsin.

"He was upset that (the Badgers) were doing it deliberately," Nittany Lions defensive coordinator Tom Bradley said.

No penalty was called, but the referees told both teams the clock would not start if the third kick was offside.

Adams said something should have been done after the first blatant offside play.

"I think after the first time it happens, you know what's going on and that it's an unfair act," Adams said.

Adams said the refs should have taken action under a rule that states: "If an obviously unfair act not specifically covered by the rules occurs during the game, the referee may take any action he considers equitable, including assessing a penalty."

Big Ten spokesman Scott Chipman said the kickoff sequence would be reviewed by Dave Parry, the league's head of officials. Parry was unavailable for comment.

"The officials could have called an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty ... but that's a judgment call, and we do not comment on judgment calls," Chipman said.

Since the start of the season, many Division I coaches have been openly critical of the rule. More than 17,500 fans have signed an online petition asking the NCAA to return to the old guidelines.

The NCAA football rules committee likely will reconsider the rule at its next meeting, in February.

"My guess is, because of the exposure we got, there may be an adaption for next year's rule book," Bielema said, with a grin. "But until then, that's the rule as it stands."

[parepat]

Originally Posted by RoyGardner

We all should re-read the first couple of sections of the NCAA rule book. When a team runs a play like this that is an intentional foul (ie: coached and planned) we should be invoking the R's rule, call a USC, put the time back on the clock, and then re-kick.

And IMO when a team takes a clear intentional foul to gain an advantage, that is by definition cheating (dictionary definition of cheating: To violate rules deliberately, as in a game)

There should be absolutely no leeway for this type of "planned play". It makes a mockery of both the game and the rules.

Let me know how calling an USC for every planned delay of game taken by an offense works out for you. The brush you are painting with is a little too wide.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by blevak

Is it just me, or did the Wisconsin team actually commit two intentional offsides penalties during the last 20 or so seconds of the first half? Seems to me this is should be either a USC and/or replacing time on the clock. Although the latter seems fair (in fact both do to me), I'm not entirely sure that replacing time is allowed.

I've had that question asked. I would start the clock on the snap if there were repeated penalties. It's hard to judge intent sometimes, but I would reserve this option.

[Theisey]

But as TXMike says, PSU did not have to accept the foul for a rekick, they could accept a 5-yard markoff from the end of the run. That rule change came in just a couple of years ago and has nothing to do with the timing change this year.
The clock was going to start on the RFP anyhow, so why waste it on a rekick when you could be snapping the ball.

[blevak]

I think the point that i was trying to make earlier is that Wisconsin apparently gets an advantage by being able to run off the clock twice in the situation they were in. Why should Penn be effectively penalized for loss of time due to what, in my opinion were tactics that could and should be considered unsportsmanlike on the part of Wisconsin.

The rule to start the clock on the kick was intended to speed up the game, not to be used for unethical purposes.

Just my opinion. Hope they figure this one out in the off-season.

[TXMike]

How can you judge they "deliberately" went offside on the KO?

Initially it was reported that that the rule this year would be that inside the last 2 minutes of a half the clock would not start on KO's until ball was legally touched after the kick. However, that is not what it actually ended up being. It would be easy to put that little change in if they choose to do so.

[blevak]

Your point is well taken - it's very difficult to judge whether a team is guilty of USC in this situation. However when a nationally ranked team, has all players but one go offsides twice in a row - methinks something is rotten in Denmark. One could argue that it is possible for it to happen, one can also argue that bumblebees can't logically fly either.

Unsportsman-like Conduct will become one of the most difficult rules to apply in the future. And one of the most important rules if we are to keep football a sport that follows a defined code of ethics.

I would say that the fault (if one can call it a fault - I do) lies primarily with the coaches. Again this is not an instance of one individual breaking a rule or crossing a line. Here we have one or more coaches that have willingly and knowingly coached their players to (again this is my opinion) break the rules to gain an unfair advantage.

[Trap]

That's the problem with rules designed for TV. Not for the game of football. People always stretch rules or find loopholes or test limits, however you want to say it. I don't think it USC, just testing the limits. I think it was a very smart play by Wisconsin, and shows the stupidity of make rules for TV. But I guess just like everthing $'s rule. TMO

[MJT]

Originally Posted by TXMike

How can you judge they "deliberately" went offside on the KO?

TXMike, the 2nd time they did it, I am interpreting it to be deliberate. If a team has 2 FStarts within the last 5 seconds of the play clock, in the last 2 mintues of the game are you going to start the clock on the RFP the 2nd time? I'm sure you are, and the rules support us in doing so.

The second time they did this, I think the official has the opportunity, within the rules, to set the clock back to the time it was before the KO, and start the clock on the snap. I'd be VERY suprised if the NCAA does not make some allowances for this next year. They, more than the NF, seem to take care of these types of things pretty quickly. Pretty easy change, something like this... "after a 2nd consecutive offisides on the kicking team, team R can take the ball 5 yards from the DB spot and the clock will be reset to the time it was before the kick."

[gsf23]

North Dakota State University did the same thing that afternoon in their game also. They did it at the end of the game though after just taking the lead. They were about 10 yards downfield before the ball was kicked. By the time the returner fielded the kick he was pretty much surrounded and easily tackled. During the kick, time ran out and on the next play, it was basically just an onside squiber to one of the up men, easily covered basically giving Cal Davis no chance to win the game with either a return or a quick recovery, fair catch and then a hail mary.