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-   -   Video Play 2 - WR hold (https://forum.officiating.com/football/28802-video-play-2-wr-hold.html)

TerpZebra Wed Oct 11, 2006 03:09pm

Video Play 2 - WR hold
 
I think our wing officials and back judges need to see plays like this better and understand that this is a significant hold at the point of attack by the offense and needs to be called.

What do you think?

Hold on TD by WR

Rich Wed Oct 11, 2006 03:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerpZebra
I think our wing officials and back judges need to see plays like this better and understand that this is a significant hold at the point of attack by the offense and needs to be called.

What do you think?

Hold on TD by WR

Agreed. This one is frequently missed by a wing focusing too much on the runner and not enough at the halo/point of attack.

OverAndBack Wed Oct 11, 2006 03:20pm

I'd say that had an impact on the play, yeah.

SouthGARef Wed Oct 11, 2006 03:21pm

Definately a hold. However, how many officials were working the game. In a four man crew, I could see how this could get missed as the wing might be watching the tight-end on the play. I don't know how other states do it, but in GA on a five man crew the BJ would be responsible for the outside receiver and the wing responsible for the inside receiver (in this case the tight-end). I'm a BJ on Friday nights on a five man crew, and this hold would be my key. Hope to God I'd see it and call it.

Snake~eyes Wed Oct 11, 2006 03:25pm

As stated above - definite hold.

Warrenkicker Wed Oct 11, 2006 03:48pm

Wow, well the receiver was quick with that hold and BJ missed it. But I can see how he missed it.

JasonTX Wed Oct 11, 2006 03:49pm

I'd expect that most of us have already quit watching our keys and have started officiating our zone (point of attack). On this play the wing official would most likely be watching the runner. The R would be cleaning up the action behind the runner. This leaves the U and BJ. More than likely the BJ would catch this in a 5 man crew and the U on a 4 man crew.

TerpZebra Wed Oct 11, 2006 03:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthGARef
Definately a hold. However, how many officials were working the game. In a four man crew, I could see how this could get missed as the wing might be watching the tight-end on the play. I don't know how other states do it, but in GA on a five man crew the BJ would be responsible for the outside receiver and the wing responsible for the inside receiver (in this case the tight-end). I'm a BJ on Friday nights on a five man crew, and this hold would be my key. Hope to God I'd see it and call it.

I was the BJ on the play, and I had that key. Unfortunately, I failed to make the call.

It was the first play I showed everyone when doing training. I wanted to make sure that showing these plays and mechanics on film is not intended to humiliate people, it's so that our association gets better. I'm definitely not above admitting I made a mistake in the game. It happens. I know I won't miss that call again, though.

NickelDeuce Wed Oct 11, 2006 03:57pm

Good for you TerpZebra. It doesn't matter who the official is on the play, it matters that the people watching it learn from it. We all miss things. But I guarantee you that this video will help others get this foul.

I agree that the BJ should get this. But honestly, I think a good HL or LJ would get this as well.

JRutledge Wed Oct 11, 2006 04:02pm

Of course it is a hold. There was a significant jersey stretch and shoulder turn. Classic hold in my opinion.

I also do not think this is something the wing is always going to see. The BJ or the Umpire could get this. The wing often times might not see this from his angle as well.

Peace

Rich Wed Oct 11, 2006 04:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerpZebra
I was the BJ on the play, and I had that key. Unfortunately, I failed to make the call.

It was the first play I showed everyone when doing training. I wanted to make sure that showing these plays and mechanics on film is not intended to humiliate people, it's so that our association gets better. I'm definitely not above admitting I made a mistake in the game. It happens. I know I won't miss that call again, though.

I'm glad you clarified. I couldn't tell if the BJ (you) was favoring the other side -- the formation seemed balanced and the ball in the middle of the field (if I'm wrong there.....we'll, I'm not going back to the video again).

I'd have no problem with the U picking this up, either.

Rich Wed Oct 11, 2006 04:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonTX
I'd expect that most of us have already quit watching our keys and have started officiating our zone (point of attack). On this play the wing official would most likely be watching the runner. The R would be cleaning up the action behind the runner. This leaves the U and BJ. More than likely the BJ would catch this in a 5 man crew and the U on a 4 man crew.

But the point of attack here isn't the runner, it's the activity near the runner.

I agree with you that the officials have dropped their keys at this point and also that the wing is watching the runner since he's near the goalline.

ljudge Wed Oct 11, 2006 04:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerpZebra
I wanted to make sure that showing these plays and mechanics on film is not intended to humiliate people, it's so that our association gets better.

Good for you, and that's the way it should be! We should all want to get better, but unfortunately there are officials out there who not only refuse to look at film, but think they are so good they belong in an NFL stadium with < 50 high school games under their belts.

Thanks for sharing.

MJT Wed Oct 11, 2006 08:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickelDeuce

I agree that the BJ should get this. But honestly, I think a good HL or LJ would get this as well.

A good H or L would also have that call. The reason they should have had the call is cuz the running back is not being threatened, so their focus should be on the blocks in front of the runner.

The best wing men will focus on blocks around the ballcarrier, watching the runner peripherally until he is threatened and then watch the runner for FM, fumbles, and so on. This is probably the most difficult thing to do as an official, but from some NFL guys I have talked to at clinics, one of the most important things to watch for as a wing.

HLin NC Wed Oct 11, 2006 09:18pm

I think the wing in that play
 
has got to focus on the ball carrier and the goal line. BJ could have made that call on the hold.

I notice the R & U didn't seem too involved at all. R trailed way behind after the pitch and the U hardly moved from his original position. I don't think U can make that call here unless he moves more to his right and looks.

MJT Wed Oct 11, 2006 09:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLin NC
has got to focus on the ball carrier and the goal line. BJ could have made that call on the hold.

I notice the R & U didn't seem too involved at all. R trailed way behind after the pitch and the U hardly moved from his original position. I don't think U can make that call here unless he moves more to his right and looks.

Here is my opinion on what you said.
The R is doing about what he should. He could have come harder after he saw no possibility for a reverse, but has to be a little careful for that possibility.
The U cannot flow too much with the ball or he may miss blocks on the inside of the play which could be critical for a cut back by the runner.
The H or L should have been at the goal line waiting for the play by the time the block occured cuz the ball was snapped at the 6 and as soon as he saw the wide pitch he should have quickly moved to the goal line and waited there. No way should the ball carrier beat him to the goal line, which is does.
The BJ should have had the call, as the wide out is his key and he does not have goal line responsibilities on a ball snapped from the 6.

Since I know the BJ is the one who supplied the video, 1st of all-thank you. It is a great learning tool that I am going to send to my crew to watch, and 2ndly - don't beat yourself up. We have all missed a call that after watching on tape we know we should have seen. Thanks again!

HawkeyeCubP Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJT
A good H or L would also have that call. The reason they should have had the call is cuz the running back is not being threatened, so their focus should be on the blocks in front of the runner.

The best wing men will focus on blocks around the ballcarrier, watching the runner peripherally until he is threatened and then watch the runner for FM, fumbles, and so on. This is probably the most difficult thing to do as an official, but from some NFL guys I have talked to at clinics, one of the most important things to watch for as a wing.

Couldn't agree more.

This is the wing's call, in a 5, 4, or 3-person crew. If the BJ flags it as well, so be it. I'm looking around the unthreatened runner at that point as that wing. When the block is started, the ball carrier is barely at the 9 yard line, without a defender within 4-5 yards. It is a rookie-esque ball-watching mistake for a wing to be looking only at the ball carrier at that point (no offense to the wing involved intended).

grantsrc Thu Oct 12, 2006 06:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP
Couldn't agree more.

This is the wing's call, in a 5, 4, or 3-person crew.

No, this wouldn't be the wing's call. The guy that held is the BJ's key. It is also his responsibility to be watching the action out in front of the play. The wing would be either watching the ball carrier or some might look downfield some but since this is at the GL, I would venture a guess that most wings would watch the ball carrier and action near him.

Other observations, the R's initial position seems too straight back from the center. Should he be at more of an angle? He should also flow harder and quicker behind the play. Also wouldn't hurt if he takes more of an angle to the ball.

As for the U, well, what can you say about him. First, he's really close to the line. I know they say 5-7 yards, but he looks right at 5 yards and that might be too close to really see his keys, G-C-G. He also needs to flow more and follow the play. Laterally he moves maybe three yards at the most. I know U's are notoriously the bigger, slower officials but there is nothing that says that's how it has to be. A blanket statement, just because you are a U doesn't mean you don't hustle.

As for the BJ (you), like everyone else said, thanks for posting. One thing I would suggest is when lining up, especially close to the endzone, start right in the middle of the field, at the pad of the upright. That way you can pivot either way to help, depending on where the pass is thrown. That's how I do it working BJ on Saturdays. Also, you favor the right side (bottom side) of the screen, when it looks like the left side (top side) is the strong side. I don't know about your area but NFHS manual states that you have the widest receiver on the strong side, which would be the blocker in question. Also, on a play like this, once you recognize that it is a run, you can slide over some from the middle of the field to help see those blocks out in front better. It's all about positioning and presence.

Thanks for posting these. Clips like this help everyone and we call can learn from these types of things.

TerpZebra Thu Oct 12, 2006 07:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJT
Here is my opinion on what you said.
The R is doing about what he should. He could have come harder after he saw no possibility for a reverse, but has to be a little careful for that possibility.
The U cannot flow too much with the ball or he may miss blocks on the inside of the play which could be critical for a cut back by the runner.
The H or L should have been at the goal line waiting for the play by the time the block occured cuz the ball was snapped at the 6 and as soon as he saw the wide pitch he should have quickly moved to the goal line and waited there. No way should the ball carrier beat him to the goal line, which is does.
The BJ should have had the call, as the wide out is his key and he does not have goal line responsibilities on a ball snapped from the 6.

Since I know the BJ is the one who supplied the video, 1st of all-thank you. It is a great learning tool that I am going to send to my crew to watch, and 2ndly - don't beat yourself up. We have all missed a call that after watching on tape we know we should have seen. Thanks again!

Oh I wasn't beating myself up. In fact, that game was a kick-off classic preseason game, which really means nothing :)

MJT Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grantsrc
No, this wouldn't be the wing's call. The guy that held is the BJ's key. It is also his responsibility to be watching the action out in front of the play. The wing would be either watching the ball carrier or some might look downfield some but since this is at the GL, I would venture a guess that most wings would watch the ball carrier and action near him.

Other observations, the R's initial position seems too straight back from the center. Should he be at more of an angle? He should also flow harder and quicker behind the play. Also wouldn't hurt if he takes more of an angle to the ball.

As for the U, well, what can you say about him. First, he's really close to the line. I know they say 5-7 yards, but he looks right at 5 yards and that might be too close to really see his keys, G-C-G. He also needs to flow more and follow the play. Laterally he moves maybe three yards at the most. I know U's are notoriously the bigger, slower officials but there is nothing that says that's how it has to be. A blanket statement, just because you are a U doesn't mean you don't hustle.

As for the BJ (you), like everyone else said, thanks for posting. One thing I would suggest is when lining up, especially close to the endzone, start right in the middle of the field, at the pad of the upright. That way you can pivot either way to help, depending on where the pass is thrown. That's how I do it working BJ on Saturdays. Also, you favor the right side (bottom side) of the screen, when it looks like the left side (top side) is the strong side. I don't know about your area but NFHS manual states that you have the widest receiver on the strong side, which would be the blocker in question. Also, on a play like this, once you recognize that it is a run, you can slide over some from the middle of the field to help see those blocks out in front better. It's all about positioning and presence.

Thanks for posting these. Clips like this help everyone and we call can learn from these types of things.

Grant, I agree it is not the L's call, cuz it is the BJ's key, but a good wing will have that call cuz the runner was not threatened, so know need to be stairing at him, and the goal line is still 5 yards away.

I agree with your assessment of the R. I just evaluated his movement and mentioned watching for a reverse.

JugglingReferee Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:02am

Canadian Mechanic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MJT
Grant, I agree it is not the L's call, cuz it is the BJ's key, but a good wing will have that call cuz the runner was not threatened, so know need to be stairing at him, and the goal line is still 5 yards away.

I agree with your assessment of the R. I just evaluated his movement and mentioned watching for a reverse.

Agreed. Huge hold. We use either 4 or 6 in Canada. 5 is rare. If a 4-man crew, the side guy gets that one, possibly a good U or R, depending on where the ball carrier is and who's around the ball carrier. In 6-man, the deep guy should grab it, or the side guy. With the extra help, the R and U don't need to expand their area.


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