Need some help with a weird roughing the passer call.

[Willnichols]

If someone can provide the actual rule for roughing the passer including the option of a change of possession I would appreciate it.

Here is the scenario in a game that happened last night:

A qb passes the ball downfield beyond the neutral zone and and it is a completed pass with extra yardage gained. B player tackles A reciever and ball comes out and a B player recoveres the fumble. HOWEVER on the pass there was a roughing the passer penalty.

Here is what happened at one of our games last night.

The officials calling the game ruled that the rtp should be tacked on from where the ball was fumbled by team A. Shouldn't the ball have returned to the previous spot (LOS) and the penalty been assessed from that point with the automatic first down?

now according to the following article:
Roughing the Passer
Rogers Redding
November 6th, 2000

http://football.officiating.com/x/article/1400

By definition (2-27-5), the passer is the player who throws a legal forward pass. He is the passer from the time the ball is thrown until it is no longer a pass, or until he moves to participate in the play.

The enforcement spot for the penalty, which is 15 yards and an automatic first down, varies depending on the result of the play. If the pass is complete and Team A retains possession until the ball becomes dead, then the penalty is tacked on to the end of the last run if that is beyond the neutral zone. But if the pass is incomplete, if possession changes during the down, or if the last run ends behind the neutral zone, the penalty is marked off from the previous spot.

[ref49873]

The basic spot for roughing the passer is the end of the last run... except if there is a changge of possession.

Rule Reference 9-4-4 Penalty
Roughing the passer, 15 yards and a first down form the end of the last run when the last run ends beyond the neutral zone and there has been no change of possession, or 15 yards and first down from prevoius spot.

The officials in your situration mis-applied the rule.

[kd0254]

Agree with Ref49873 - If there is a change of possession penalty is enforced from the Previous spot, even if A ends up getting it back on another change of possession. (2 changes on one play)

[Willnichols]

Thanks for your help. That point has been argued all day long today but no one could seem to come up with a rule only the argument that it must have been from previous spot.

[DJ_NV]

So how about this:

1/10 at the A-30. A81 catches a pass at the A-45 where he fumbles. B recovers, runs to the A-43 and fumbles where A78 recovers the ball at the A-42 and is downed.

Where do you enforce from? PS or A-42?

[cougar729]

I would say thats a COP, even though A ended up with the ball, they have a new 1st down anyways, without the RTP. Go back to the previous spot and give them 15, auto 1st

[ref49873]

Originally Posted by DJ_NV

So how about this:

1/10 at the A-30. A81 catches a pass at the A-45 where he fumbles. B recovers, runs to the A-43 and fumbles where A78 recovers the ball at the A-42 and is downed.

Where do you enforce from? PS or A-42?

There is a change of possession, even though A retained possession after all play in completed. If penalty is accepted, enforce from previous spot, 15 yards and auto 1st down.

[booker227]

you would only tack on the fifteen at the end of the run if there was no change of position. With the change of possession, you tack on the fifteen from the previous spot and an automatic first down

[DJ_NV]

That's correct. It's always an automatic first down, but you tack 15 (or 1/2 the distance) on to the the of the last run if the last run ends beyond the NZ and there was no COP during the down.

So first, let's look that the COP. If there is a COP during the down, regardless of whether A has the ball at the end of the down, if the penalty is accepted, it will always be enforced from the Previous Spot. Now if there has been a COP during the down and A has the ball at the end of the down then you have some penalty options to discuss with A. It's going to be a new series for them whether they accept or decline, so you need to make sure you know which one will give them more yards by accepting or declining.

As for the EOLR enforcement, if team A fumbles and recovers (no COP), it doesn't matter how many times they fumble or if any or all are behind the NZ or if one of the runs goes behind the NZ at some point. All that matters when there is no COP is that if the last run ends beyond the NZ, then that's the enforcement spot.

Now the question that some ask is, does a recovery with no actual 'run' constitute a run?

Example: 2/10 from the A-30. Pass is complete to A81 at the A-36 who runs to the A-45 and fumbles. A85 recovers the ball at the A-40 while on his knees. Do you enforce from the A-45 or the A-40?

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally Posted by DJ_NV

Now the question that some ask is, does a recovery with no actual 'run' constitute a run?

Example: 2/10 from the A-30. Pass is complete to A81 at the A-36 who runs to the A-45 and fumbles. A85 recovers the ball at the A-40 while on his knees. Do you enforce from the A-45 or the A-40?

(And there was roughing the passer.)

Under NFHS rules, no. Enforce from A-45. Rulebook justification is tough, since it doesn't define "run", just "end of the run" and "runner". But casebook 9.4.4D addresses this very play.

I believe, under NCAA rules, yes, the recovery creates a final, zero-length run. Therefore, enforce from the A-40.