Question about fair catch
 

Please help me out with the following scenario:

R1 signals for a fair catch of a punt while the ball is in the air. The ball hits the ground several yards in front of R1 who then attempts to pick up the ball. K1 then creams him. What do you have?

My fellow officials say that R1 is still afforded protection and there should be a flag on K1. What is the difference between that and an onsides kick that has hit the ground? If R1 is standing at his free kick line and the kicking team attempts an onsides kick, can he signal for a fair catch if the kicker pops the ball up in the air by kicking the ball into the ground?

I would appreciate any answers you guys can give me. Thanks in advance.

A stab at it from the non-official:

No foul- R1 is given protection until the ball hits the ground. After that, you can obliterate him.

Why would a non-official guess as to a specific rules answer?

When R gives a valid or invalid fair catch signal they are giving up their right to advance the ball whether is has been grounded or not. The player(s) who signal for a fair catch also forfeit their right to block until the kick has ended. The use of terms like 'creamed' and 'obliterate' lead me to believe that there could be a foul in this instance.

In other words, once the ball has touched the ground, a KCI foul cannot occur. However, that does not mean that K cannot commit a Personal Foul or another type of illegal block.

As for the a FC signal on an onside kick, it is possible. However, that's usually why the kicker kicks the ball immediately into the ground and popping it up. By doing that, KCI cannot occur by rule and also it's a foul by R for an invalid FC signal if they signal for a FC after the ball has touched the ground. If this happens, remember that it will always be a PS foul as there is no PSK on free kicks so K can decline it or re-kick it. R will not get the ball if K accepts an invalid FC signal on a FK.

KCI on k at the spot of the infraction. It doesn't matter if the ball has touched the ground or not. If R cannot block nor advance the ball after a legal, illegal or invalid fair catch signal is given, then K cannot tackle him.

booker227 - you need to read rule 6.5.6. You can only have KCI when the ball is in flight.

booker,
That's not correct. KCI simply cannot occur after the ball has been grounded. See 6-5-6 and 2-1-3. though you are correct that if R1 has given a FC signal, then they cannot block during the down (actually "until the kick has ended" but they're technically the same thing if a valid or invalid FC signal has been given, unless the SK is recovered behind the NZ).

K may or may not be able to tackle R1. At the very least, it could be nothing (R1 simulating being a runner) though that's not very likely. More likely it would be holding, and at worst it would be a Personal Foul or an illegal block (like a BBW). However, it's not KCI--it simply can't be after the ball has touched the ground. Remember, KCI comes with special enforcement rules and it's important that these aren't part of the penalty process if it's not KCI.

REPLY: It might be a personal foul, but it can't be KCI. KCI is defined in NF 6-5-6 and it clearly says that the prohibition against interfering with R's attempt to catch the free or scrimmage kick applies only while the kick is in flight.

Sorry DJ_NV...you beat me by a couple of minutes.

Can anyone give an example of when the kick ends prior to the end of the down when a fair catch signal has been given? I have one, but want to see if anyone has a different one.

Iw
 

IWs are bad bad bad

REPLY: If K recovers a scrimmage kick behind the neutral zone. Do I win the prize?

BTW...this is the express reason that the signaler is prohibited from blocking before the kick ends, rather than before the down ends.

Cause that's what coaches do the best?!?! :D

Again, as usual, you da man.

If the giver of the fair catch signal could not participate until the down ends, he could not make the tackle on a member of the kicking team who recovers a kick behind the line and advances.

I'm just learning, Rich...

;) Must be a coach or a dad. You know how hard they study the rules.

R gave the legal signal while the ball was in the air. From what you're saying, because the ball has touched the grounded the the Fair catch is off? Does it say that in the rule book? Once the fair catch signal is given, R is protected until the kick has ended. And when does the kick end?

The better way to state this is that the protection afforded to R under the fair catch rules are no longer applicable once the ball touches the ground.

The rule is 6-5-6 (in NF) and the key words are "in flight", which is defined 2-1-3 as a ball that has not touched the ground. Therefore, you can infer that if that ball has touched the ground, then 6-5-6 (and its association protection of R) do not apply.

Also note that the KCI restrictions are also no longer valid if R touches (think muffs) the ball, even though it hasn't touched the ground.

To answer your question about when the kick ends: The kick ends when one of two things happen. Either 1)the ball becomes dead by rule (goes OOB, etc.) or a player gains possession of the live ball. IF K gains possession beyond the NZ, then 1) and 2) happen at the same time. If R gains possession, the ball is still live (the down is not ended) but the "kick" has ended.

Secondly, there is no rule that states that R is protected until the "kick" has ended. R is only protected as long as certain things have happened, mainly:

1) a valid FC signal was given
2) the ball has not touched the ground
3) the ball has not touched a Team R player

If any of those things happens, then R is not protected and a foul for KCI cannot occur.

My understanding then is R1 (giving a valid fair catch signal) can not block until the kick has ended (usually when the ball is dead except for Bob M's great example), but he loses his protection as soon as the ball hits the ground. If that's correct, he best get out of the way because he can only get himself in trouble.

That's exactly right. It's almost like the reverse mentality of what a FC is all about.

While the FC gives R the protection from being hit by K (and therefore K is holding back), that same R player can't go and slam a K player.

If K's going to leave him alone, then that particular R player should have to leave K alone. It certainly makes trying to figure out who did what and when easier.

If R signals and blocks, it's a foul. Period. (except for Bob's example and then all hell will be breaking loose anyway so we all will probably have forgotten about the FC signal--not that it matters as R's restriction would be off anyhow)