Illegal Sub/Participation/Formation?

[waltjp]

Sorry guys, at work without my rule books.

NFHS

Team K is in punt formation at K40. K has only 10 players on the field as the RFP is blown. K80 steps from his team box onto the field.

Sit A - K80 stops after a few steps but still inside the 9-yard marks. Team R doesn't notice K80 and nobody covers him.

Sit B - K80 stops after a few steps but still inside the 9-yard marks. Team R does notice K80 and cover him.

I'm thinking Illegal Participation in Sit A and Illegal Formation in Sit B. Case book or rule reference would be appreciated.

Thanks

[ljudge]

I don't have my books with me either but in reading what you have Walt, I have legal plays in both situations. In both you said he was inside the 9-yard marks and the reason they're there is to avoid someone 'slipping' into the game unnoticed. I mean as long as he's inside those marks and is set for a full second I don't have anything.

In fact, this past Saturday we had this very situation. K was kicking and the coaches were yelling because the kids were making stupid mistakes such as illegal formations, shifts, not knowing when to be in the game, etc. The coaches sent the K11 player into the game and the LJ (when I questioned it) told me he made it to the 9-yard marks and was set for a full second. We ruled it legal.

[waltjp]

Thanks for the reply, Joe. In reading your answer I realized that I worded the question incorrectly. K80 stopped OUTSIDE the 9-yard marks.

[kdf5]

I don't have my books but I don't believe you'd have IP in either scenario. Technically, you'd have a formation foul in both. I'll leave it to you to decide whether R's noticing him or not is a flag or not. Some say they'd flag it if he's not covered and wouldn't if he is.

[Jim D]

This is a foul for illegal formation. It is 7-2-1 "after the ball is ready for play...each substitute must have been, momentarily, between the 9-yard marks, befor the snap." The legality of an offensive formation in not, in any way, dependent of whether the defense has the sub covered.

[NWMORef]

Originally Posted by Jim D

This is a foul for illegal formation. It is 7-2-1 "after the ball is ready for play...each substitute must have been, momentarily, between the 9-yard marks, befor the snap." The legality of an offensive formation in not, in any way, dependent of whether the defense has the sub covered.

I don't think that 7-2-1 applies because the ball will not be snapped.
It would be IP (9-6-4e) if subtitute would enter immediately before the free kick. Other wise you don't anything.
In side or outside the 9 yrd mark has no bearing on a free kick.

[golfnref]

Originally Posted by NWMORef

I don't think that 7-2-1 applies because the ball will not be snapped.
It would be IP (9-6-4e) if subtitute would enter immediately before the free kick. Other wise you don't anything.
In side or outside the 9 yrd mark has no bearing on a free kick.

The original question had team K in punt formation not a free kick. A snap will definitely occur to put the ball in play.

[Warrenkicker]

This is a scrimmage kick and not a free kick. Also there is no rule against entering the field just before the snap. This isn't Canada, if they can get on and get set then let them do it.

In both situations it is, by the book, illegal formation under 7-2-1. 7-2-1 has no get-out-of-jail-free provision based on if the defense covers the player.

However some officials might say that in situation A, and possibly B (but that is a harder case to prove), there was also intent to deceive the defense into thinking this player was not in the game and have illegal participation under 9-6-4d. This might be a case where a wing has the foul for illegal formation and then the kickers throw the ball to the player who came on late because he was uncovered. In this situation the call might change from IF to IP whereas if they just punt the ball then it would probably stay as IF.

[NWMORef]

Originally Posted by NWMORef

I don't think that 7-2-1 applies because the ball will not be snapped.
It would be IP (9-6-4e) if subtitute would enter immediately before the free kick. Other wise you don't anything.
In side or outside the 9 yrd mark has no bearing on a free kick.

Your are right my error. 7-2-1 applies for Illegal formation in both sit a & B